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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    Who are these types of feminists that you are referring? Can you give me an example?

    I'm going to hazard a guess that you're basing the description on media stereotype and not real examples. I've read feminist literature for 20+ years and have yet to come across high profile feminists with such views. I don't doubt for a moment that if you looked hard enough you can find some feminists who believe in such extremes but that is not representative of the broader feminist movement. It's like using the beliefs and actions of the Westbro Baptist Church to represent Christians.
    You can hazard to your hearts content and you would be wrong. I've spoken to them, I've been present when they have "spoken" to my housemate who's a plumber and has been a plumber for ten years and was told that a first year female plumbing apprentice should be paid as much as he is because it's the only way to fix the equality issues in Australia. I've been shouted down because I disagree strenuously with a lot of their "beliefs" and told that I'm quite happy with the inequality in Australia. When I told them I don't get paid less than my male counterparts in the same job as me and in all my jobs I never have been I get told I'm wrong and that I was oppressed. I've never doubted that it happens to people, I'm just not one of them. I get told I'm a horrible human being because I work in the adult industry and if we have an industry it should cater for females (which it does) and not males, and that I perpetuate the cycle of oppression when I point out that they can't really complain about men objectifying women (I.E. Angelina Jolie being hot) but then objectify women themselves (if they're lesbians) or men (I.E. perving on Channing Tatum because he's hot) because it's okay for them, they believe in equality and men don't.

    Eta: And then I'm reminded by Chickabees post I was present for the most disgusting conversation I've heard, which was men in abusive relationships must want to be in one or they wouldn't be, so it's not really abuse and that you can't rape a man. *Shudder*
    Last edited by Jennaisme; 21-04-2014 at 11:39.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I often wonder if equal rights feminists are horribly embaressed by women-ruling-the-earth, lets have a matriarchal society, **** men, they all suck! Type feminists, or if they feel these types do no favours for the feminist movement itself?
    From talking to people, these feminists are the ones who yell the loudest and have the biggest voice. They try and oppress men, almost to punish them for stuff they hadn't done, simply because they have a penis, which could be why a lot of people refuse to be associated with the idea of feminism, because tbh these people tarnish the whole idea horrendously.
    So it could be people don't see the way women in society are treated as lesser, because when one hears some demands of these matriarch-society feminists, it really sounds like they just want more. Not equality, they want to be above men, treated better than, paid better than the males in society. I guess people figure that if we weren't equals, that would be their first issue but it never seems to be, alqays they want more.
    Not sure if it's been said but these people you describe are not feminists- you're describing misandry.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Not sure if it's been said but these people you describe are not feminists- you're describing misandry.
    It may not be feminism, but they call themselves feminists, fly under the feminist banner (for want of a better word) and all around give equal rights feminists a bad name. I wonder if a lot of equal rights feminists also fight against this issue, since it's also a pretty big one??

    Eta: They are as big a problem for equality in Australia as sexism, ingrained or otherwise. As soon as people hear the word "feminist" they immediately switch off and stop listening because of these people. We aren't getting anywhere with equality when no one will listen because people have tarnished the idea of feminism so thoroughly that people no longer want to hear a true feminist speak.
    Last edited by Jennaisme; 21-04-2014 at 11:43.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Not sure if it's been said but these people you describe are not feminists- you're describing misandry.
    But they identify as feminists and the media identifies them as feminists which means that when I describe myself as one, that's the kind of person people assume I am.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    You can hazard to your hearts content and you would be wrong. I've spoken to them, I've been present when they have "spoken" to my housemate who's a plumber and has been a plumber for ten years and was told that a first year female plumbing apprentice should be paid as much as he is because it's the only way to fix the equality issues in Australia.
    And are these people leading the feminist discourse in Australia or anywhere else in the world? Why are you shaping your views of feminists from random encounters of people who are quick to verbalise their thoughts? As for pay suggestion, you're provided one anecdote - and there is a valid argument to be had - it's the basis for affirmative action. I'm not suggesting in this instance it's the optimal solution - I prefer not to comment on a third hand encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I've been shouted down because I disagree strenuously with a lot of their "beliefs" and told that I'm quite happy with the inequality in Australia.
    If you're happy with inequality in Australia then good for your. I'm not though, I want better for my children and for others. I want a society that doesn't normalise violence against women, doesn't accept women as mere sexual objects for the titillation of others, a world where there is equal representation of women in media, assumes equal credibility of men and women, a world where casual sexism is not the norm, a world where women are not penalised by having children, where more than 56% of movies pass the Bechdel test...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    When I told them I don't get paid less than my male counterparts in the same job as me and in all my jobs I never have been I get told I'm wrong and that I was oppressed. I've never doubted that it happens to people, I'm just not one of them.
    Nor have I, and that makes you and me privileged. You can also thank previous generations of feminists for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I get told I'm a horrible human being because I work in the adult industry and if we have an industry it should cater for females (which it does) and not males, and that I perpetuate the cycle of oppression when I point out that they can't really complain about men objectifying women (I.E. Angelina Jolie being hot) but then objectify women themselves (if they're lesbians) or men (I.E. perving on Channing Tatum because he's hot) because it's okay for them, they believe in equality and men don't.
    Encyclopedias can/have been written about feminism and the adult industry. Personally I don't think it's as black and white as adult industry = anti-feminism but that's a whole different subset discussion from the OP.
    Last edited by Busy-Bee; 21-04-2014 at 18:04.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    It may not be feminism, but they call themselves feminists, fly under the feminist banner (for want of a better word) and all around give equal rights feminists a bad name. I wonder if a lot of equal rights feminists also fight against this issue, since it's also a pretty big one??
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickyBee View Post
    But they identify as feminists and the media identifies them as feminists which means that when I describe myself as one, that's the kind of person people assume I am.
    And Westbro Baptist Church members identify themselves as Christians. Would you think they are representative of Christians?

    Anyway, I've got a slab of concrete to bust up with a sledge hammer *flexes muscles*.

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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I made a comment in another thread about disliking feminism.

    To start I do agree that women and men should be treated equally, what I dislike about feminism is the constant division of men and woman then comparing them as groups.

    I think feminism is counterproductive in that if we keep dividing women by having separate professional development networks for women and business woman of the year type things we immediately set ourselves apart from men, so how do we expect to be treated as equals?

    I also don't like how they say in the media, in life really that men get paid more than women for the same job as those figures are based on averages. Inevitably it will seem that way if there are more men in the workplace, which again inevitably happens if mums only work part time or not at all after having kids, or are delayed in full time work until kids are in school.

    I also debate that argument as there are anti discrimination laws against paying a woman who is equally qualified and experienced for the exact same role within the one organisation so if a woman finds herself in that position, she should and can do something about it.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think this does and can happen, but in many cases it is unintentional eg a man has been in that organization for a long time and a woman (with equal,experience and equally qualified) comes into the same role years later and would be on less (despite as the company had paid him extra due, to his years of service).

    These scenarios wouldn't be taken into account into these reports in the difference in pay between men and women.

    I just think there is a lot of sensationalism around it all which is what really dislike for the above reasons.

    I also wonder if you're a feminist is it ok if a man holds a door open for you or do you do that yourself givenyou're an equal to the man opening the door? Genuine question, I just wonder where the line is drawn when it comes to being treated equally, is there anything a man can do for a woman because she is a woman at all or do you not have any expectations on that front?
    On the gender pay gap, I think you might want to do some reading. It's not a media beat up, it's a widely studied issue. I think you'll find many scenarios have actually been taken into account.
    http://www.actu.org.au/Images/Dynami...SEM_report.pdf
    From the above report:
    "Using robust microeconomic modelling techniques, based on a comprehensive and critical evaluation of several methodologies, we found that simply being a woman is the major contributing factor to the gap in Australia, accounting for 60 per cent of the difference between women’s and men’s earnings, a finding which reflects other Australian research in this area. Indeed, the results showed that if the effects of being a woman were removed, the average wage of an Australian woman would increase by $1.87 per hour, equating to an additional $65 per week or $3,394 annually, based on a 35 hour week." (The second most important factor in explaining the pay gap was industrial segregation)

    Saying there are anti discrimination laws is close to meaningless. There are laws against reckless driving, littering, assault- you name it. That does not mean they are always followed nor does it mean they are enforced. It's not easy to find yourself the victim of gender discrimination and just "do something about it". It's difficult to prove and even if you can where do you take your issue, especially when working for a small company that may not even have a HR dept? Many don't take it further because they cannot afford to risk their livelihoods. It's not a simple matter at all.

    Door opening... If I get there first, I open the door. If DH gets there first, he opens it. It's just consideration. Nothing to do with gender for me personally.

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  12. #28
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    Going to have to come back to this thread when I can jump on my computer. Clearly if people think I'm all for inequality and base my whole perception on feminism from a few chance encounters, I'm not articulating myself well. -_-

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    subbing, will add something when I have a chance

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    It may not be feminism, but they call themselves feminists, fly under the feminist banner (for want of a better word) and all around give equal rights feminists a bad name. I wonder if a lot of equal rights feminists also fight against this issue, since it's also a pretty big one??

    Eta: They are as big a problem for equality in Australia as sexism, ingrained or otherwise. As soon as people hear the word "feminist" they immediately switch off and stop listening because of these people. We aren't getting anywhere with equality when no one will listen because people have tarnished the idea of feminism so thoroughly that people no longer want to hear a true feminist speak.
    The example of Westboro is a good one. They can call themselves whatever they like but this doesn't make it so.
    I would also argue that such people are a minority and are in no way as big a problem in Australia as gender inequality. I can't even remember reading about such a group in Australian media??
    I've no doubt they exist but I haven't seen any major pot stirring by them against which I should be fighting. I in no way agree with misandry and would definitely call it out if I saw it though. There used to be a poster on BH who refused to accept any definition of feminism but extreme misandry, some of the links she shared were appalling


 

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