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  1. #11
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    I think the area where we see real gender inequality is in professions where there are no men. So, Childcare or aged care for example where there are historically lower numbers of men. In these professions the skilled workers are paid exceptionally lower rates when compared to similarly qualified and responsible workers in similar fields. It would seem, when it comes to demanding better pay and working conditions, that large groups of men are taken more seriously. I know there were laws brought in for professions like this recently, but there is still a long way to go until we are equal.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I have worked in both, those jobs and organisations who do and those who don't.
    Ok thanks. Have you worked in a male dominated industry since having children?

  4. #13
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    Australian culture is still one based on gender stereotypes and wage discrepancies. Girls do girls jobs and men do mens jobs.

    Things are starting to change but very slowly. How many male child carers do you know? How many female forklift drivers or plumbers?

    Women are more likely to work in "soft jobs" and men outdoors. The wages difference just between these two types of jobs is huge. A forklift driver could pull in $28-30 an hour. A receptionist a whole $19.

    Then there is the social stigma of women working away from home or doing shift work and having thr father "baby sit". This social stigma pushes more women into lower paying school houred jobs that are more "family friendly" and "school hour friendly".

    Feminism needs to come a long way here in Australia.

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  6. #14
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    When I think about 'Feminism' - the 'door opening thing' doesn't even enter my head.
    To mention it totally diminishes [imo] the reasons that feminism is NEEDED, worldwide.

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  8. #15
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    I think it is fantastic to see awards like business women of the year because it not only recognises the participation of those women but also encourages younger women rising through the ranks, particularly when women are underrepresented in higher level management. Men on a whole don't have extended time away from the work force during phases of important career growth and progression as do women having time off for children, and this time of often leaves women at a disadvantage foe promotion because they may not be able to dedicate the hours and may have more absence sure to caring for children. Also women are often left with less super at the end of their careers sure to time of for raising children.

    I think that feminism has done amazing things for the status of women, but unfortunately it seems that it is now taken for granted and worse still used as a punch line or insult. I think it is really impish that we not drop the ball on feminism now.

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    I often wonder if equal rights feminists are horribly embaressed by women-ruling-the-earth, lets have a matriarchal society, **** men, they all suck! Type feminists, or if they feel these types do no favours for the feminist movement itself?
    From talking to people, these feminists are the ones who yell the loudest and have the biggest voice. They try and oppress men, almost to punish them for stuff they hadn't done, simply because they have a penis, which could be why a lot of people refuse to be associated with the idea of feminism, because tbh these people tarnish the whole idea horrendously.
    So it could be people don't see the way women in society are treated as lesser, because when one hears some demands of these matriarch-society feminists, it really sounds like they just want more. Not equality, they want to be above men, treated better than, paid better than the males in society. I guess people figure that if we weren't equals, that would be their first issue but it never seems to be, alqays they want more.

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    Hi OP, I don't have time right now to write any kind of long post addressing some of the points you raise.... But just wanted to say something about what the below post addresses - and is what is really the underbelly of sexism in Australia - ingrained sexism.

    One good example I can think of is an example given by a poster in this forum some time ago. She is a professional and was on a weekend conference I think, with some male colleagues, and the first thing she was asked was 'so where are the kids this weekend?'. Being the only female in the group, she was the only one asked this. So what does this tell us about ingrained attitudes of people still, in such a modern country as Australia? That people still see women's default responsibility as being a mother. For men who are fathers, it is not assumed he is neglecting, or leaving his kids behind, whether he is married or single, it's not questioned. Ok so it's not evil to ask such a question of course, but it's an example of how ingrained sexism exists regardless of 'equality' laws.

    Blatant sexism and misogyny are much more obvious in many other backward countries around the world, but ingrained sexism still very much exists everywhere.

    Will address the pay thing later....

    And if someone opens a door for me I appreciate it as courtesy. Why they did it, you'd have to ask them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oblena View Post
    To me feminism is needed because attitudes need to change - not laws. While 'we' have equal rights on paper, we do not have equal standing in society. There is too much ingrained attitude towards women and their 'capabilities' and real ill treatment of women and girls. There is a lot of ingrained gender bias and I think that this hurts both men and women - feminism, true feminism helps all people. Every time something happens to you, especially in the workplace, ask yourself, "would this happen to a man?" If the answer is no, then you have an example of ingrained sexism. Sometimes this happens the opposite way, but a lot of the time it is indirectly affecting women. With regards to your door opening question - yes I accept, just as I accept a woman holding the door for me, and just as I hold the door for a man if I get there first. Door opening/ holding is about common courtesy, it does not mean that I am weak, it means that I am acknowledged as a human. I know that maybe some men open the door for me because I am a woman, but I accept and 'assume' it was held out of courtesy. I teach DD to be courteous in the same manner. Ingrained attitudes take generations to remove, so I think that we, as a society, need to start acting in a way that is courteous to others and not get caught up in whether door opening or the like is acceptance of weakness etc.

  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I often wonder if equal rights feminists are horribly embaressed by women-ruling-the-earth, lets have a matriarchal society, **** men, they all suck! Type feminists, or if they feel these types do no favours for the feminist movement itself?
    From talking to people, these feminists are the ones who yell the loudest and have the biggest voice. They try and oppress men, almost to punish them for stuff they hadn't done, simply because they have a penis, which could be why a lot of people refuse to be associated with the idea of feminism, because tbh these people tarnish the whole idea horrendously.
    So it could be people don't see the way women in society are treated as lesser, because when one hears some demands of these matriarch-society feminists, it really sounds like they just want more. Not equality, they want to be above men, treated better than, paid better than the males in society. I guess people figure that if we weren't equals, that would be their first issue but it never seems to be, alqays they want more.
    Who are these types of feminists that you are referring? Can you give me an example?

    I'm going to hazard a guess that you're basing the description on media stereotype and not real examples. I've read feminist literature for 20+ years and have yet to come across high profile feminists with such views. I don't doubt for a moment that if you looked hard enough you can find some feminists who believe in such extremes but that is not representative of the broader feminist movement. It's like using the beliefs and actions of the Westbro Baptist Church to represent Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I often wonder if equal rights feminists are horribly embaressed by women-ruling-the-earth, lets have a matriarchal society, **** men, they all suck! Type feminists, or if they feel these types do no favours for the feminist movement itself?
    From talking to people, these feminists are the ones who yell the loudest and have the biggest voice. They try and oppress men, almost to punish them for stuff they hadn't done, simply because they have a penis, which could be why a lot of people refuse to be associated with the idea of feminism, because tbh these people tarnish the whole idea horrendously.
    So it could be people don't see the way women in society are treated as lesser, because when one hears some demands of these matriarch-society feminists, it really sounds like they just want more. Not equality, they want to be above men, treated better than, paid better than the males in society. I guess people figure that if we weren't equals, that would be their first issue but it never seems to be, alqays they want more.
    As a mostly quiet equal rights feminist, yes I am embarrassed & infuriated by them. I want equality for all and that includes men.

    I saw a video where a group of feminist pulled the fire alarm on a talk about men's rights regarding being sexually assaulted. The leader constantly shouted over everyone who didn't automatically agree with her, called everyone the c-word and abused any one who questioned her motives. It made me sick to my stomach that the group of people who shout the loudest about taking victims seriously had hijacked a meeting about that very thing because the target group didn't fall in line with who they thought the attention should be on.

    The way I see it, attitudes need to change. But men have grown up seeing certain sexist attitudes all over the place - at home, in the media, in public - and as wrong as it is, it that's what influences their world view. Getting angry at those who really know no better because it's what has surrounded them their entire lives isn't going to achieve anything except get more and more people dismissed any complaint as coming from 'angry man hating feminists.' Not to mention it's confronting and uncomfortable to have your views challenged, especially when it's something you've been raised with your entire life.

    I'm going to stop typing now, because I have strong feelings on the matter but past here is either where they get disorganized and I start to babble and stop making sense or I switch on lecture mode and people start eye rolling at me if they haven't already .

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    In the other thread you made a comment that I will paraphrase along the lines of "if there were men's business networking groups there would be an outcry".

    Have you never observed a job, opportunity, promotion or payrise awarded to a male who belongs to the 'boys club'? Have you never been not told about the after-work drinks in a male dominated field purely because you are a woman? Have you not heard of institutions like the Fremasons or any of the gentleman's clubs (no not strip bars!) where men network?

    The reason that womens' business networks are being created is because the mens' ones already exist and are so deeply ingrained they barely rate a second thought for many people.

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