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  1. #1
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    Default Spinoff - feminism

    I made a comment in another thread about disliking feminism.

    To start I do agree that women and men should be treated equally, what I dislike about feminism is the constant division of men and woman then comparing them as groups.

    I think feminism is counterproductive in that if we keep dividing women by having separate professional development networks for women and business woman of the year type things we immediately set ourselves apart from men, so how do we expect to be treated as equals?

    I also don't like how they say in the media, in life really that men get paid more than women for the same job as those figures are based on averages. Inevitably it will seem that way if there are more men in the workplace, which again inevitably happens if mums only work part time or not at all after having kids, or are delayed in full time work until kids are in school.

    I also debate that argument as there are anti discrimination laws against paying a woman who is equally qualified and experienced for the exact same role within the one organisation so if a woman finds herself in that position, she should and can do something about it.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think this does and can happen, but in many cases it is unintentional eg a man has been in that organization for a long time and a woman (with equal,experience and equally qualified) comes into the same role years later and would be on less (despite as the company had paid him extra due, to his years of service).

    These scenarios wouldn't be taken into account into these reports in the difference in pay between men and women.

    I just think there is a lot of sensationalism around it all which is what really dislike for the above reasons.

    I also wonder if you're a feminist is it ok if a man holds a door open for you or do you do that yourself givenyou're an equal to the man opening the door? Genuine question, I just wonder where the line is drawn when it comes to being treated equally, is there anything a man can do for a woman because she is a woman at all or do you not have any expectations on that front?

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    I disagree with a lot of your points but don't have the evidence to prove it!

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    To me feminism is needed because attitudes need to change - not laws. While 'we' have equal rights on paper, we do not have equal standing in society. There is too much ingrained attitude towards women and their 'capabilities' and real ill treatment of women and girls. There is a lot of ingrained gender bias and I think that this hurts both men and women - feminism, true feminism helps all people. Every time something happens to you, especially in the workplace, ask yourself, "would this happen to a man?" If the answer is no, then you have an example of ingrained sexism. Sometimes this happens the opposite way, but a lot of the time it is indirectly affecting women. With regards to your door opening question - yes I accept, just as I accept a woman holding the door for me, and just as I hold the door for a man if I get there first. Door opening/ holding is about common courtesy, it does not mean that I am weak, it means that I am acknowledged as a human. I know that maybe some men open the door for me because I am a woman, but I accept and 'assume' it was held out of courtesy. I teach DD to be courteous in the same manner. Ingrained attitudes take generations to remove, so I think that we, as a society, need to start acting in a way that is courteous to others and not get caught up in whether door opening or the like is acceptance of weakness etc.

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    OP, just wanted to clarify:

    Are your views referring specifically to Australia (or Western society in general)?

    Or do you mean worldwide, including countries such as Saudi Arabia, India etc?
    Last edited by sky1; 21-04-2014 at 09:18.

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    Oblena, I expect, well I like, my DH to open a door for me but not because of a weakness of mine or the fact I'm a woman, I like the traditionalism of it.

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    I agree with most of what you've said, but I know it's not a common view on bubhub.

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    OP it's relevant to how I answer so just a question.

    Do you currently or have you ever worked in a profession that has women focused events or groups?

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    Firstly, let's define feminism. Feminism is the belief and desire for gender equality, nothing more. Historically, feminism has a very broad spectrum of adherents from those that believed that as soon as women got the vote we were now 'equal' to the much more extreme other end. Feminists are not a homogenous group - I would most definitely call myself a feminist but I would probably disagree with some of the other feminists in BH about some topics. That's fine, it is unrealistic to expect us to all agree with each other on every matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I made a comment in another thread about disliking feminism.

    To start I do agree that women and men should be treated equally, what I dislike about feminism is the constant division of men and woman then comparing them as groups.

    I think feminism is counterproductive in that if we keep dividing women by having separate professional development networks for women and business woman of the year type things we immediately set ourselves apart from men, so how do we expect to be treated as equals?
    There is nothing wrong with women wanting to have seperate professional development networks. I would imagine that in years to come it may (hopefully) be a thing of the past. The fact is that professional networks have historically been mostly exclusively males because females held a lot fewer of these types of roles.

    Moreover, no one is saying that equality = same. Men and women are different, we relate to each other differently, have different needs etc. There is no issue with catering to gender specific needs. What is the issue is when there is only one framework and that framework has been established and perpetuated by a male dominated society and does not cater for those that do not share the same needs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I also don't like how they say in the media, in life really that men get paid more than women for the same job as those figures are based on averages. Inevitably it will seem that way if there are more men in the workplace, which again inevitably happens if mums only work part time or not at all after having kids, or are delayed in full time work until kids are in school.

    I also debate that argument as there are anti discrimination laws against paying a woman who is equally qualified and experienced for the exact same role within the one organisation so if a woman finds herself in that position, she should and can do something about it.

    Don't get me wrong, I do think this does and can happen, but in many cases it is unintentional eg a man has been in that organization for a long time and a woman (with equal,experience and equally qualified) comes into the same role years later and would be on less (despite as the company had paid him extra due, to his years of service).

    These scenarios wouldn't be taken into account into these reports in the difference in pay between men and women.
    There was a thread on here some time ago that provided evidence that males were paid more on entry level salary (I think it was lawyers) than females. There would most likely be exceptions to that but the data proved that overall, for this particular profession, even entry at entry level males had an advantage over females. This in then likely to be perpetuated through their professional lives (especially if they are in the same organisation) as pay increases are usually based on percentage - so the higher your starting salary the more your payrise will be each year compared to a colleague with a lower salary but the same percentage payrise.

    Additionally, just because women are the ones that bare children, why shoudl that mean we are paid less when returning to work? How about we challenge the common employment/working frameworks so they are not so heavily favouring males or those that don't take time off for children?


    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I just think there is a lot of sensationalism around it all which is what really dislike for the above reasons.
    Because women make half the population yet it's still considered so acceptable to portray women as nothing more than sex objects, or used to sell items (the connotation that if you buy this product you get to sleep with a woman like this).

    Because every single week a woman in Australia dies from abuse at the hands of their partner or former partner. That's one woman a week. One young man is tragically hit in the head one night and dies and there is an outcry (which I'm not saying shouldn't happen) yet it's acceptable that a woman dies every week from a violent partner.

    I could go on but I would prefer to draw your attention to a few good articles and website:

    http://australia.everydaysexism.com/
    Google Clementine Ford and Anne Summers for some social commentary articles
    https://www.facebook.com/clementineford


    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I also wonder if you're a feminist is it ok if a man holds a door open for you or do you do that yourself givenyou're an equal to the man opening the door? Genuine question, I just wonder where the line is drawn when it comes to being treated equally, is there anything a man can do for a woman because she is a woman at all or do you not have any expectations on that front?
    I can only answer for myself but yes, it's ok. Generally speaking I prefer the 'who ever gets their first' rule. It's just manners, it doesn't matter what genitals they have.

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  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    OP it's relevant to how I answer so just a question.

    Do you currently or have you ever worked in a profession that has women focused events or groups?



    I have worked in both, those jobs and organisations who do and those who don't.


 

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