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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    I think that is running together two very different discussions for rhetorical effect. One, is the issue how to deal with irregular arrivals of asylum seekers to Australia. The second is the question of what contribution Austrlia can make to ameliorating the insecurity and persecution that drives migration flows in the first place.

    On the second, which I believe Atropos was addressing, I would suggest we could make a much bigger contribution in our own region through increased aid and engagement with the source countries of displaced persons. The obvious example is Burma, from where many hundreds of thousands of refugees have fled. There are fragile peace agreements in place between the Burmese govt and various rebel groups that need to be build upon, and Australia could play a significant role here. Unfortunately, Julie Bishop seems to be one of the more inept foreign ministers in recent times, so I'm not holding my breath.

    But in any case, reducing foreign aid is precisely the wrong thing to do, not least because it undermines our credibility as a regional partner.
    Thanks John- I'm not at my most articulate today but I'm glad someone got my point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Yes. They are very different, but Atropos seems to be saying it is 'wrong' to deal with the first because it is not dealing with the second.
    You asked me what the government's objective should be. I answered you. I do think it's wrong to "deal" with one as we are while doing nothing to deal with the other. What's wrong with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    6- I did give an alternate objective- I said Australia should (as per JohnC's comment) increase our humanitarian intake and work with international agencies to do what we can to address the root issues overseas that cause people to get on these boats in the first place. What do you want me to do? Lay out a new policy for presentation to parliament???
    An objective is quantifiable. So your first part could be an objective - 'to raise the humanitarian intake to 20,000'. But that would do nothing to stop the boats. But your second is not an objective. It is not much more than a thought bubble - 'to do what we can'???? That is not an objective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    You asked me what the government's objective should be. I answered you. I do think it's wrong to "deal" with one as we are while doing nothing to deal with the other. What's wrong with that?
    So we are giving no foreign aid? There is no cooperation with our regional neighbours? You seem to be closing your eyes to what we are actually doing. Do you have an example on what we should be doing but aren't?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    So we are giving no foreign aid? There is no cooperation with our regional neighbours? You seem to be closing your eyes to what we are actually doing. Do you have an example on what we should be doing but aren't?
    For starters, our foreign aid contributions have been substantially slashed. Surely you know this stuff? What is your objective here? Are you trying to get me to embrace current policy?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    An objective is quantifiable. So your first part could be an objective - 'to raise the humanitarian intake to 20,000'. But that would do nothing to stop the boats. But your second is not an objective. It is not much more than a thought bubble - 'to do what we can'???? That is not an objective.
    Dude, I'm not a politician or anyone in the know when it comes to how to get huge things like committing a country to working towards a better and safer world. As I said, it's not up to me to decide our objectives. I can disagree with the current ones without knowing the specifics of a better solution- I've said that numerous times. You seem quite happy with how things are right now and don't seem to see anything wrong with current policy. Numerous people, over many threads, have explained to you repeatedly why many Australians disagree with our current policy, detailing humanitarian issues, the fact that we are breaching international law and not upholding our obligations as signatories to the refugee convention, suggesting other alternatives like community based detention etc- I honestly don't know what else to tell you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    So we are giving no foreign aid? There is no cooperation with our regional neighbours? You seem to be closing your eyes to what we are actually doing. Do you have an example on what we should be doing but aren't?
    An example? How about being more supportive of the efforts by Cameron and others to deal with the shocking human rights abuses in Sri Lanka?

    This was a great example of the most short-term political cynicism overriding any principled foreign policy.

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    Atropos  (31-03-2014)

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    An example? How about being more supportive of the efforts by Cameron and others to deal with the shocking human rights abuses in Sri Lanka?
    How did Cameron 'deal' with those abuses? What was the result?

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    Father I would like you to answer these points

    A detailed projection with stats and proof of the next 10 years of changes to 'illegal' migration under the current rules (and I'm not just talking boats as we know lots come on working and holiday visas and never go home)

    A detailed cost analysis for the next 10 years of how much we should be contributing to foreign aid, taking into account factors such as economic prosperity, birth rate on a year to year basis etc. You are going to need to use your predictive skills here and back them up with data.

    A break down of each ethnic group seeking asylum any given year and percentages of their 'true' status. By religious group could also be helpful.

    If you can't back up everything I've asked for now, then that makes every argument you've ever made on the topic defunct and your opinion needs to be discounted bc clearly you don't know what you are talking about.

    Obviously I'm being facetious. You couldn't possibly have access to that data, nor make those predictions with 100% accuracy. But this is exactly the line of argument you are using on others.

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    Atropos  (31-03-2014)

  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    How did Cameron 'deal' with those abuses? What was the result?
    Don't you have google?


 

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