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  1. #71
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    Just a thought: I wonder why breast milk isn't commercially available? In the past there were wet nurses who were paid for their efforts.

    I didn't feel bad about bottle feeding with EBM. Why isn't this supported more? It's a bit of a time commitment but it's a nice compromise and can reduce stress and anxiety and sore nipples. Breast pumps have really developed too.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pru40 View Post
    Just a thought: I wonder why breast milk isn't commercially available? In the past there were wet nurses who were paid for their efforts.

    I didn't feel bad about bottle feeding with EBM. Why isn't this supported more? It's a bit of a time commitment but it's a nice compromise and can reduce stress and anxiety and sore nipples. Breast pumps have really developed too.
    It is. It's expensive as hell though. When I looked into it it was $8 for 110-120 mls of pasteurized BM.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpancakes View Post
    It took me 6 weeks of struggling, insomnia and obsessive anxiety before I realized I didn't need anyone else's permission to switch to formula. I'm normally quite a rational person but after 9 months of assuming I'd breastfeed my child, and all the help I got in hospital (and i did get a lot of BF help), and from 2 lactation consultants, several calls to the ABA and long phone calls with helpful breastfeeding friends, the last thing I felt like I could do was stop trying and switch to full time FF. never once did any of these experts tell me that FF is ok. Of course I knew it was an option, but I felt guilty every time I topped DD up with a bottle after my pathetic attempts to BF and express every 2 hours.

    I strongly felt like I'd be letting all these people down, that id be failing my daughter (putting her at risk of disease, low IQ, obesity, no bonding), I felt like everyone I knew would judge me.

    Now I know that's not true, but when you're a first time mum getting no sleep and hearing rubbish like that BF is the best, and that formula damages their guts and their minds and their relationship with their mums, it's very hard to make that switch.

    I feel furious when I think about the anguish I felt before I made the switch and I wish no mother would ever have to feel that again. FF was the best thing for DD and I, and her Dad.

    So I don't believe you can simplify it and say this woman would have known how to formula feed. Physically feeding a bottle is easy. Emotionally it's very hard for many women who have been brainwashed by the BF propaganda.
    I don't think I was brainwashed about bf my first. I just assumed it would be easy and that I would do it. I went to hospital after my waters had broken with no bottles, formula, nothing. After 24 hours and advice from midwives, my husband went out and bought everything we needed to formula feed. A midwife in hospital showed me how to make it up.

    I certainly don't think ff damaged my relationship with my dd1, because I felt much more closer to her ff due to the size of my breasts. I did express as well, but she had formula every day. It does change their gut. I watched my daughter's poo change from seedy mustard colour to green. That is from formula and nothing else. Same thing happened to my son when I went back to work when he was 5.5 months old and by that stage I couldn't express much. His poo turned green.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I sort of agree with ciao mamma. The poor lady in the story was in and out of hospital... At any time she, or her husband could have gone out and given bub formula. Even with the breastfeeding nazi brigade, I don't believe the mum didn't know anything about formula. If the mum didn't switch to formula then perhaps it was because she (herself) felt guilty and stressed about giving up breastfeeding. Sure the breastfeeding lobby probably fed that insecurity but the fact the mum was already predisposed to depression says to me that her negative feelings were at least partially home grown.

    - I'm not saying the medical folks aren't to blame. Clearly they could have done more to help and the fact they didn't is disgraceful. I just don't think the hospital and breastfeeding lobby is to blame 100%.
    I was just talking about in hospital from my own experience, not once you were home. I agree with the above too.

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  6. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Fair enough, it's a sensitive issue. I'm really sorry you had such a bad experience,hopefully it's better for you next time
    It's ok. I'm glad to be a part of an online community that understands and can empathize when people get a bit sensitive to issues

  7. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpeamummy View Post
    I read this story a couple of days ago and it reads from the dad/husbands POV. My only question is where his blame lies?
    I understand the system and hospital failed her but to me he failed as well.

    Do I think the breast/bottle is an issue? Yes. I don't understand why so much pre natal care is about labour and delivery when it should be about caring for your new addition. Breast is natural (it is not manufactured) but bottle is not second best. A fed baby is all that matters.
    What exactly could he have done different? He took her to the gp, the hospital, called mental health, took over feeding the baby when he didn't have to work, organised for his parents to come and help out. Should he have stopped sleeping in order to make sure she didn't get up in the middle of the night like she did? I think he did the best he could in the situation. How many new fathers aren't overwhelmed by the whole parenting gig and put their complete trust in professionals and their wives?

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  9. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by trustno1 View Post
    What exactly could he have done different? He took her to the gp, the hospital, called mental health, took over feeding the baby when he didn't have to work, organised for his parents to come and help out. Should he have stopped sleeping in order to make sure she didn't get up in the middle of the night like she did? I think he did the best he could in the situation. How many new fathers aren't overwhelmed by the whole parenting gig and put their complete trust in professionals and their wives?

    Sent from my U8860 using The Bub Hub mobile app
    I agree it sounds like he had a tough time and tried hard to help his wife. That being said he could have told her it was ok for her to use formula. That giving up breastfeeding didn't mean she was a failure. It's not just the responsibility of the medical staff. Perhaps he did say this. I don't know.

  10. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I agree it sounds like he had a tough time and tried hard to help his wife. That being said he could have told her it was ok for her to use formula. That giving up breastfeeding didn't mean she was a failure. It's not just the responsibility of the medical staff. Perhaps he did say this. I don't know.
    Perhaps she was the one who was adamant that she wanted to breastfeed and he was just supportive of his wife.
    The whole tragic series of events has nothing to do with how babe was fed though. It was entirely due to the trained professionals only dealing with the feeding issues and not doing a damn thing about the underlying PND issue. Yes the feeding issues may have exacerbated her PND, but who's not to say that the same thing would have happened if she'd bottle fed from the get go? The worst part is that she was seen regularly by medical professionals who should have done something for the poor woman, instead of sweeping the PND under the rug and focusing on the breastfeeding.

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  12. #79
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    THis is another tangent entirely - I don't doubt that breastfeeding does all those things, science shows it does. But science also shows that you can't tell the difference between a child who was formula fed and one that was breast fed. I think the benefits of breastfeeding have been grossly over exaggerated by some in the past (not by you!!) - and studies are showing this. Of course the benefits should be mentioned, just not exaggerated.

    To the PP who said that the husband was to blame. WTF? No seriously, he tried so hard to get his wife help and no one would listen. What should he have done, chained her up so she couldn't go out and kill herself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I sympathise with you and agree with you on much of what you've said, being someone who ff my first and struggled to bf my second (never managed to exclusively bf for long and used formula top ups). I remember feeling a failure having to top up DD2. It's not a nice feeling at all. But I feel uncomfortable/uneasy with one or two of the things you've said here.

    The reason that hospitals etc say breast is best is because, generally speaking, breast milk *is* the best food for babies. Obviously there are exceptions, but this is the case for the vast majority of babies. I think it's important to remember that knowing that breast milk is the best food for infants doesn't mean that formula milk is bad. I know some aggressively pro bf mums carry on this way, but they are wrong. Formula is the next choice to breast milk and is made to meet the needs of babies as closely as is possible. (ETA sometimes breast isn't best for MUM and I think hospitals don't acknowledge this fact in their policies a lot of the time)

    It is a fact that formula changes the gut- not a judgement. It is what it is. The other factors you mention. Some have been shown in studies- some studies put those risks as very small. But we must feed our babies, breast or bottle, they need feeding. The bonding one though- you can certainly bond with your baby, breast or bottle, as I'm sure you know. I guess my point is that it's not all "propaganda"- it's pretty well on the money. I just wish it would stop being presented as a judgement towards those who cannot or choose not to bf.

    To use a kind of dodgy analogy (because I'm struggling to get my point across coherently)-

    I have to buy a new car, so I buy a Holden. You also needed a new car, and recently bought a Mitsubishi. My choice to buy a Holden is not a judgement on your choice of Mitsubishi. The Mitsubishi suited your family/needs whereas the Holden works for us.

    Does that make any sense?

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  14. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I wonder if there was investigation into the hospital and other staff and what the outcome was?
    The memorial website has a summary of the inquest.


    Two things they found:
    • The mental health crisis team failed to disclose or discuss any options other than home treatment both prior to or during her treatment, arguably failing to obtain “informed consent” in breach of GMC guidelines
    • The Indepenent Investigation into Joe’s death found clinical evidence Joe should have been admitted to hospital at least 3 days before she died and if she had would have been expected to make a full recovery


    The daily mail article says that she described to her GP a number of different ways she'd been thinking of ending her life.
    They referred her to the mental health team who decided she should be treated at home, when there was a mother baby unit with beds available at the time. I think the article headline could have just as easily have read: 'Did the NHS/Mental Health crisis team cause this Mother's death?'

    Re the feeding- It says she was persuaded to move on to bottle-feeding (it doesn't say if it was by her family or health professionals) but at that point was so unwell that she cried for 6 hours straight before her husband could get her to bed. I'm struggling to understand why the mental health team didn't recognise she needed inpatient treatment, particularly after she was initially referred to them because she was considering different methods of suicide.

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