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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    You don't see the difference? Wow.
    Not really. I just re-read your post a second time and it sounds exactly like how global warming is treated. Do you not see the similarities?

  2. #112
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    ....sigh.

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Not really. I just re-read your post a second time and it sounds exactly like how global warming is treated. Do you not see the similarities?
    You are saying that scientific evidence and wide support from the scientific community with regard to climate change is the same as faith in god- for which there is no evidence- something which requires "faith" as opposed to "evidence"... You know what? Don't worry about it. If you actually see these things as similar and aren't just trawling for an argument, I honestly am not qualified to help you. Nothing I say will alter your worldview because you don't want it to. If you are just trawling for a debate, I don't really have the energy or inclination!

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  6. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I think that it's about perception. Non religious people don't really understand why religious beliefs cannot be questioned, challenged or disagreed with. "It's my belief!" Is often the only response- and as a no religious person that's hard to swallow. People can try again and again to explain they are just asking- seeking to understand or perhaps illustrating a point- but it is almost always met with offense and a claim of persecution (on here - in my experience). It seems to be the one subject where people are expected to accept without question what another believes.

    Evolution is accepted by the scientific community to the point of being taught in schools around the world. I'm not claiming to know it all but I do know there is far more evidence to support evolution than creationism.
    Just for the record, I don't feel persecuted, and I welcome questions and challenges.

    I do understand on one hand why Father might liken the "global warming religion" to other religion. If anyone does question or challenge whether climate change may be a naturally occurring phenomenon or how much man may be involved, it is laughed at.

    I guess it's along the same lines as I laugh at the Carbon tax and its uselessness in addressing what it purported to do. People were saying it had made great changes to our Carbon output when it had only been in place for 2 months and there had been no actual changes made at a company level attributable to it. I therefore attributed change to naturally occurring phenomena or changes which had already been put into places which was dismissed by others.

    There is a reason only few dare tread into threads like this and I'd attribute that to the way that attitudes do come across.

    As for me, I do acknowledge that the climate is changing across time. I acknowledge that humans have a huge impact on our environment and we need to change how we interact with it. How much this has impacted upon the actual climate and not just the globe is usually the bigger debate. But the more I see of facts on Carbon, the more I question some of the "absolute" climate change enthusiasts. It is why I do read threads like these with interest, but don't bother entering in much.

    Yes, evolution is taught in schools, but not to the extent that it is put across here as total fact. Yes, there is evidence available that supports evolution, there are also some gaps that have been filled by human hypothesising. People are looking for evidence for creation, but they run into the same issues as outlined above.

    Look at last weeks' abc show with Joanna Lumley in search of evidence for Noah's ark. (It was on Compass for those that weren't aware).
    Last edited by Mod-pegasus; 23-03-2014 at 16:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Just for the record, I don't feel persecuted, and I welcome questions and challenges.

    I do understand on one hand why Father might liken the "global warming religion" to other religion. If anyone does question or challenge whether climate change may be a naturally occurring phenomenon or how much man may be involved, it is laughed at.

    I guess it's along the same lines as I laugh at the Carbon tax and its uselessness in addressing what it purported to do. People were saying it had made great changes to our Carbon output when it had only been in place for 2 months and there had been no actual changes made at a company level attributable to it. I therefore attributed change to naturally occurring phenomena or changes which had already been put into places which was dismissed by others.

    There is a reason only few dare tread into threads like this and I'd attribute that to the way that attitudes do come across.

    As for me, I do acknowledge that the climate is changing across time. I acknowledge that humans have a huge impact on our environment and we need to change how we interact with it. How much this has impacted upon the actual climate and not just the globe is usually the bigger debate. But the more I see of facts on Carbon, the more I question some of the "absolute" climate change enthusiasts. It is why I do read threads like these with interest, but don't bother entering in much.

    Yes, evolution is taught in schools, but not to the extent that it is put across here as total fact. Yes, there is evidence available that supports evolution, there are also some gaps that have been filled by human hypothesising. People are looking for evidence for creation, but they run into the same issues as outlined above.

    Look at last weeks' abc show with Joanna Lumley in search of evidence for Noah's ark. (It was on Compass for those that weren't aware).
    Sorry- I didn't mean you specifically felt persecuted- apologies if I came of that way- meant more of a general response I've seen here from other hubbers in threads I've been active in or just read along with. I really don't think anyone here is actively trying to persecute religious people- I know I have been accused of it and it was honestly not my intention, but no matter how I tried to explain it I was met with the same response- basically me saying 'you have the right to do whatever you want with regards to your religion and I respect that- but I do not personally agree with it' was met with 'I'm so offended, you guys are being horribly rude'- nothing I could say could clarify what I was getting out because some people hold their religion so close that even questioning an aspect of it is unacceptable to them- does that make sense?

    While I get @Father 's point, I think it is a massive oversimplification.
    Human impact on the climate is well supported at this stage- however, if conclusive evidence to the contrary was to emerge and be widely studied and be the consensus of scientists in this field, I personally would be happy to accept that iykwim. I'm sure most people would. That's the beauty of science- it evolves as we learn more. Many religions, however, cling to outdated notions and demand faith even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And religion isn't a science- it's so open to interpretation. You only have to look at the variations of interpretations of the christian bible- from Westboro to the uniting church, you know? Even Catholicism is very different to your Church of England etc.

    A quick google showed this http://www.hsc.csu.edu.au/biology/co..._1/931net.html which I think shows pretty clearly that evolution is taught as a widely supported theory (this says 2002 though- I'm not a teacher and have no idea if this may have been superseded ) Whereas creation is a religious theory therefore is not taught in state schools and even religious schools must be careful in how they address it *if* they choose to teach it.

    Will have a look online for the Noah's Ark thing- sounds interesting

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  9. #116
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    and all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks with the one word...UNLESS
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    Just to add - I don't have any issues with the teachings (as @Atropos outlined regarding evolution from the NSW HSC). Natural selection certainly exists and the environment and species adapt and change. It's the "missing links" which open another whole can of worms.

    FTR, I've only watched part one of the Joanna Lumley (geez - she is ab fab) Compass special. (I'll watch part two tomorrow, but finally started GOT tonight ). It starts with her pilgrimage to Ararat, and ends with her consulting a geologist. Very interesting viewing (from my POV). Also interesting is reading the comments from both religious and non religious viewers regarding the theories of global or non-global (ie. they think only 12km of horizon would have been viewable if only that amount of land was flooded)flooding and whether it actually happened at the time.

    I think discussion regarding the idea of floods and what comes with it is actually quite pertinent to this climate change discussion. I find different theories very interesting and always make me want to read more on these areas.

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    This is an interesting turn in the discussion since in the US the attack by fundamentalist Christians on the high school science curriculm has now taken the form of linking evolution, climate change and the Big Bang as all inventions of "secular scientists" that should be subject to "critical thinking" (aka refutation) in the 9th grade classroom.

    @pegasus
    You are aware that the 19th century term "missing link" is a now a deprecated term in biology. It had its origin in a time when there was virtually no fossil evidence of human evolution, a state of affairs that has changed radically since the 1960s.

    @Atropos
    The situation in Australian Christian schools is rather more depressing when it comes to the science currirculm than most people realise.

    http://www.abc.net.au/religion/artic...20/3968199.htm

    Money quote:
    Bible Baptist Christian Academy in the Perth suburb of Mount Helena (which receives a taxpayer boost of $8732 per student) states that its "science curriculum teaches that God made the world in six, literal days." Others teach evolution "for the sake of understanding and refuting it," while others again teach both evolution and creationism as alternate "theories."
    Last edited by JohnC; 24-03-2014 at 07:06. Reason: added quote

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    Yes, I know, John- I have family members in a "Christian" school. The school itself is very nice, and they are doing very well- but the religious studies are in conflict with the science subjects- it's contentious for the kids from very early on.

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    Pegasus - this 'Missing link' thing..is this something you are happy to discuss? or are you just putting it out there as your reasoning and want it left at that?

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    If anyone wants to watch the show Pegasus has mentioned, featuring Joanna Lumley - you can watch it here >>
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LKZYbJ93bE

    ...I am currently packing, ready to move house - so played it whilst boxing up DVDs, it is an interesting watch.
    I've personally made notes - because that's what I like to do

    It highlights a number of points actually that I can recall being mentioned by a few of us in previous threads relating to the topic.

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