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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post

    If you terminate and baby is over 20 weeks or 400gm, it must be given a funeral. If you terminate after 20 weeks, you need to sit before a panel and get permission.
    That is not true about a baby being given a funeral, or at least not in every state. Even if the baby is born alive after a termination, it is still not given a funeral in WA. Which states does this happen in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesperatelySeekingSleep View Post
    Oh wow. if all laws were this over thought, none would get in.
    I would hope that all laws are at least this over thought. Parliamentary drafters spend endless hours making sure that all the if/buts are covered and so they should. Law interpretation is not easy and just because you think it is 'obvious' what was meant, that doesn't mean a court will find the same thing.

    I have worked with government in drafting legislation and prosecuting under legislation. I have also sat on the other side of the fence for clients. I can assure you that what people 'intended' the legislation to do, does not always come out in court. (Note I am not a lawyer, though I do have Masters in Law, but I have worked with many lawyers).

    I am not really sure why this specific law is needed. Punching someone is already an offence, as is causing a traffic accident. A judge could use discretion to sentence with the impact on baby considered, a specific law shouldn't be required.

    I feel the same about the new Queensland bikie laws. For example there are already laws making selling drugs illegal - prosecute the bikies for that - you don't need a specific law just because they all wear the same type of jacket.

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That is not true about a baby being given a funeral, or at least not in every state. Even if the baby is born alive after a termination, it is still not given a funeral in WA. Which states does this happen in?
    Certainly in QLD, a baby born after 20 weeks has to be registered for both birth and death with births deaths and marriages and given a funeral (a service does not have to be held but the parents must arrange either a cremation or burial for the baby).

    You are also eligible for the baby bonus once the baby reaches 20 weeks. That is certainly a national policy.

    It does seem kind of odd that babies are recognised as `people' for want of a better word (in QLD anyway) at 20 weeks, but if someone deliberately harmed the unborn baby (i.e. in an assault) they would not be held accountable for the death.
    Last edited by NoteToSelf; 21-11-2013 at 20:23.

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  6. #64
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    SpecialPatrolGroup is offline T-rex is cranky until she gets her coffee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grooviechic35 View Post
    One thing I could think of if a bio father tried to get a mother who terminates for whatever reason without his consent...

    However I like this as I think some people do literally get away with murder in this case.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMama View Post
    So would it be fair if the mother was charged with manslaughter in an accident like the woman in the US? I fell down an entire flight of stairs when I was 30 weeks pregnant. Thankfully the worst that came of it was me fracturing my coccyx, but what if the worst had've happened and my baby had died. It would've been a horrific accident, would it be fair that I possibly could've been charged with manslaughter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    From memory, believe it or not, neither was the American one. It was pretty much like this one. It was just abused.
    Also the teenager who caused the death of her baby due to her drug taking during pregnancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I can totally understand people wanting the death of an unborn child recognised in some way- I cannot even imagine the heartbreak. But I don't think this law is the answer to that. It opens too many doors that lead to a place where women are not in control of their bodies.

    To the pp who said mums taking illegal drugs should be punished- look at it this way- drug addiction is recognised as a disease. Rehab is not always affordable or accessible. You are talking about punishing mothers for what may be beyond their control, women who often aren't even in their right mind. Yet the woman doing something legal yet risky- say she eats sushi, drinks red bull and cleans cat litter every day while eating a Brie sandwich- she may damage or kill her baby through her actions too- where does it end? What about a pregnant woman that walks up slippery stairs and falls? The woman that drank heavily until she was 20 weeks because she didn't know she was preg?
    Below is the overview of the bill, and highlighted is the part that excludes pregnant women from being prosecuted for anything that they do to themselves.



    Crimes Amendment (Zoe's Law) Bill 2013(No 2)Explanatory noteThis explanatory note relates to this Bill as introduced into Parliament.Overview of BillAt present, a person against whom a criminal offence can be committed does not include the foetusof a pregnant woman. Under the Crimes Act 1900, grievous bodily harm is defined to include thedestruction (other than in the course of a medical procedure) of the foetus of a pregnant woman,whether or not the woman suffers any other harm. Accordingly, proceedings can be institutedunder the Crimes Act 1900 against a person who unlawfully causes the destruction of the foetusof a pregnant woman if the proceedings are brought for the offence of causing grievous bodilyharm to the pregnant woman--for example, the offence of dangerous driving causing grievousbodily harm to a woman (section 52A (3)) or the offence of causing grievous bodily harm to awoman unlawfully or negligently (section 54).The object of this Bill is to amend the Crimes Act 1900 to recognise the separate existence of thefoetus of a pregnant woman that is of at least 20 weeks' gestation (as a living person) so thatproceedings for certain offences relating to grievous bodily harm may be brought against anoffender who causes the unlawful destruction of or harm to any such foetus as proceedings forgrievous bodily harm to the foetus rather than proceedings for grievous bodily harm to thepregnant woman. In the case of the unlawful destruction of a foetus of less than 20 weeks'gestation, the Bill retains the existing provision that enables proceedings to be brought forgrievous bodily harm to the woman.The Bill does not apply to anything done in the course of a medical procedure or to anything done by or with the consent of the pregnant woman that causes the destruction of or harm to a foetus.
    I agree that this law could be used against women (particularly when I hear the likes of Fred Nile are jumping on board) but if the bolded section is always at the core of the laws I am hopeful that the law can be used as intended....or maybe i'm living in a fools paradise .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That is not true about a baby being given a funeral, or at least not in every state. Even if the baby is born alive after a termination, it is still not given a funeral in WA. Which states does this happen in?
    I just googled this because I know in WA it isn't a legal requirement to have a funeral and register the baby if they are over 20wks/400g and the sands website said it's a legal requirement in most states - doesn't list which ones though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That is not true about a baby being given a funeral, or at least not in every state. Even if the baby is born alive after a termination, it is still not given a funeral in WA. Which states does this happen in?
    As a pp poster said in qld if it's after 20 weeks or over 400g then it birth and death must be registered and must be buried/cremated appropriately.

    once the baby is born there's no distinction between a baby that was terminated at 24 weeks for fetal abnormalities or a baby that was stillborn at 24 weeks for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I think Nile is a fruitloop but saying most pro lifers are .. that's plucking from the butt a bit...
    Anybody who wants to ban abortion is IMO.

    And yes, I know that's not what is happening with this law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That is not true about a baby being given a funeral, or at least not in every state. Even if the baby is born alive after a termination, it is still not given a funeral in WA. Which states does this happen in?
    In NSW, yes, that is what happens, which is where Zoe's law has just passed in Lower house.

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    So if they are registered with births deaths marriages, who is naming all these babies? I really don't think this registration applies to terminations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    So if they are registered with births deaths marriages, who is naming all these babies? I really don't think this registration applies to terminations.
    The parents, and yes, it includes medical terminations. No difference if the baby is born spontaneously or terminated, after 20 weeks it is named and has a funeral. Parents are made fully aware of this when they are considering a termination.


 

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