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  1. #461
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    I would assume all men fit into the "type of person I don't want within 10k of me" if they forced me to carry and birth a baby. So yes, all men in that scenario wouls fit there.

    And I promise, no one chooses a mate with the belief they're abusive/s3xual predators.

    This message is bought to you by my phone and is not part of my post.
    Last edited by BH-bubhub; 17-12-2014 at 10:21.

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  3. #462
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    SpecialPatrolGroup is offline T-rex is cranky until she gets her coffee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women (where possible) start taking responsibility (using contraception properly, choosing a good mate) and social services funding improves.
    My bold. I actually think that this is really naive. People are not static, people have shifting wants and needs, priorities change, peoples feelings change, mental illness and substance abuse happens.

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  5. #463
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    If we're talking hypothetically and abortion is made illegal in Australia (which please, does have the potential to happen, you simply cannot say that it won't happen), and therefore women who would otherwise chose to terminate, and now forced into a pregnancy and birth they did not want, then what are the alternatives?

    1. Be a great Mother, and all is well.
    2. Be resentful of the baby, child doesn't grow up in a loving home.
    3. Suffers from PND or even PTSD, who knows what out come that could have, potentially ending her own life, the life of the baby or both.
    4. Abandons the baby. At a church, a hospital, a rubbish skip. Anywhere.
    5. Adopts the baby out.

    I have a problem with adoption in place of abortion. And that is, the system, that is child services, are already understaffed and underfunded. Foster carers are in short supply and the adoption process is not an easy, or a quick one. So, with extra babies entering the system, it's going to place a lot of extra strain everywhere. Not to mention that with more young babies, does that then have the potential to mean that older children will be overlooked in place of the small, cute baby?

    Reality is. Making abortion illegal is not a quick fix. It doesn't stop women falling pregnant. It doesn't stop life being ended, it just means in *some* cases it would be actual murder of an actual baby, not a termination of the unborn/foetus.

    I just can't understand, and believe me, I have tried, how people think that making abortion illegal, or at the least, women shouldn't have that choice, is a good idea. It just brings so many other ramifications that I truly don't think some people understand.

    And whilst we're talking about hypothetical scenarios. What about Government assistance? With women now being forced to be pregnant and have babies that normally wouldn't have, this most likely means more women making use of Government financial assistance and more women leaving the paid workforce, for whatever length of time. Which will ultimately put a bigger strain on the Countries economy. Now, I don't have any issues with people making use of Government assistance, but is this something others have considered? It would also mean that there is potentially a bigger proportion of families living below the poverty line.

    Forcing women to have babies, is such a complex issue. It comes with a multitude of other ramifications, not just for the individual, but also on a much larger scale. Others may think all of the above is a bit far fetched, but I don't think so. It's such a multifaceted issue which I think some people (and I'm not talking about anyone in here, just in general) fail to understand or recognise.

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  7. #464
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    So basically it boils down to - sex (for women) is only for procreation.

    - Men and women are *ahem* equal...'but' :

    - the Woman must carry the burden/responsibility [depending on how you look at it] of, reading the future regarding her mate, avoiding any circumstances that may lead to sex for fun if she is not 100% sure the 'mate' will stick around and fulfil the role of perfect father, abstain from intercourse unless she finds a hormonal contraceptive that agrees with her body/isn't allergic to condoms/or spermicide/is wearing a diaphragm for back up.

    - the Man can just go have sex cause it feels good.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 30-11-2013 at 09:26.

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  9. #465
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    Gosh, I shagged heaps of men in my late teens and early to mid twenties while I was young and carefree and while I was travelling. Many of these men would've been unfit for parenthood at that stage, and so would I have been. But I was having loads of fun, using condoms and on the pill. If I fell pregnant, I would not have kept the baby.

    Sex is fun

    ETA - and even if I did fall pregnant, I wouldn't have even know how to find the father on some occasions, and even on occasions tell him I enjoyed the company of some men in countries where I couldn't speak the language and their English was limited. Still, was so much fun
    Last edited by BigRedV; 30-11-2013 at 09:34.

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  11. #466
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    harvs is offline Winner 2014 - Spirit of BubHub Award
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    What it also means is that even though it takes two to make a baby, if both a man and a woman make a mistake or have an accident and conceive a child they should have the same say in that baby's life and as such, if the man wants to keep the baby and the mum doesn't, I don't think she has the right to terminate that mans baby.

    This is where I was heading with the first quote you had from me - women need to accept we are the ones who carry the baby (because we are different reproductively)
    I've been following this thread the whole way, and I have to say it's been so interesting to read intelligent, non-snarky discussion. This comment really bothers me, though. Why does what the woman want become less important? What if it's flipped, and the woman wants to keep the baby, and the man wants to terminate? Whose needs come first then?

    I agree, women need to accept we are the ones who carry the baby. And also we are the main ones who are irrevocably responsible for that baby's life and well being for the rest of our own lives, well, a hefty proportion of it. *Men* need to accept that, as well. *Men* need to remember that every time they have sex with a fertile woman, there is a chance of pregnancy occurring, and the pregnant woman in question may choose to terminate, or may choose to keep the baby.

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  13. #467
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    Yes, I know a few women who were in committed relationships with men. They both agreed to ttc. Then when she got pg he freaked out, changed his mind and either wanted to her abort or just turned into a pig.

    I admit, I find great difficulty understanding why women actively ttc with men who are already jerks. It makes no sense why someone would do that. But it's certainly not a stretch to see the scenario I gave above. Sometimes men start out great, then change, both in personality and in wanting a baby.

    We have talked about the woman not wanting the baby, and the man does, and how he should have rights to a say. But lets turn things on their head - what if a woman desperately wants to keep the baby and he's demanding she abort. Should he still get to influence her decision?

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  15. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Have you any idea the failure rates of contraception? Seriously? It is not low you know. Why does it fall always on the woman? Seriously, you want men to have half the choice about terminating a baby - but yet they have to take no responsibility in not making the woman pregnant. The mind baffles, truly it does. 1950's called and they want their line back.
    I think men have an equal responsibility for contraception, and in the event of a pregnancy I feel the man has an equal responsibility for the baby.
    - To be honest if contraception is used correctly the failure rate isn't as high as people sprout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    If we're talking hypothetically and abortion is made illegal in Australia (which please, does have the potential to happen, you simply cannot say that it won't happen), and therefore women who would otherwise chose to terminate, and now forced into a pregnancy and birth they did not want, then what are the alternatives?

    1. Be a great Mother, and all is well.
    2. Be resentful of the baby, child doesn't grow up in a loving home.
    3. Suffers from PND or even PTSD, who knows what out come that could have, potentially ending her own life, the life of the baby or both.
    4. Abandons the baby. At a church, a hospital, a rubbish skip. Anywhere.
    5. Adopts the baby out.

    I have a problem with adoption in place of abortion. And that is, the system, that is child services, are already understaffed and underfunded. Foster carers are in short supply and the adoption process is not an easy, or a quick one. So, with extra babies entering the system, it's going to place a lot of extra strain everywhere. Not to mention that with more young babies, does that then have the potential to mean that older children will be overlooked in place of the small, cute baby?

    Reality is. Making abortion illegal is not a quick fix. It doesn't stop women falling pregnant. It doesn't stop life being ended, it just means in *some* cases it would be actual murder of an actual baby, not a termination of the unborn/foetus.

    I just can't understand, and believe me, I have tried, how people think that making abortion illegal, or at the least, women shouldn't have that choice, is a good idea. It just brings so many other ramifications that I truly don't think some people understand.

    And whilst we're talking about hypothetical scenarios. What about Government assistance? With women now being forced to be pregnant and have babies that normally wouldn't have, this most likely means more women making use of Government financial assistance and more women leaving the paid workforce, for whatever length of time. Which will ultimately put a bigger strain on the Countries economy. Now, I don't have any issues with people making use of Government assistance, but is this something others have considered? It would also mean that there is potentially a bigger proportion of families living below the poverty line.

    Forcing women to have babies, is such a complex issue. It comes with a multitude of other ramifications, not just for the individual, but also on a much larger scale. Others may think all of the above is a bit far fetched, but I don't think so. It's such a multifaceted issue which I think some people (and I'm not talking about anyone in here, just in general) fail to understand or recognise.
    Forcing women to have babies is a bit of an over dramatization. Unless a woman is raped she should know that when she has a shag, there's a chance she could fall pregnant, especially if she doesn't use contraception properly. Women do have control over their bodies: they can choose to be as careful as they can when choosing who to shag and using contraception. If they don't then I don't feel any sympathy for them if they fall pregnant and aren't able to have an abortion.

    As for what the solution is I agree it's hard. Even though I dont agree with abortion for non medical reasons I would rather try better sex education and making contraception free over banning abortion.

  17. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsharvey View Post
    I've been following this thread the whole way, and I have to say it's been so interesting to read intelligent, non-snarky discussion. This comment really bothers me, though. Why does what the woman want become less important? What if it's flipped, and the woman wants to keep the baby, and the man wants to terminate? Whose needs come first then?

    I agree, women need to accept we are the ones who carry the baby. And also we are the main ones who are irrevocably responsible for that baby's life and well being for the rest of our own lives, well, a hefty proportion of it. *Men* need to accept that, as well. *Men* need to remember that every time they have sex with a fertile woman, there is a chance of pregnancy occurring, and the pregnant woman in question may choose to terminate, or may choose to keep the baby.
    Why does it bother you? If it is flipped and the woman wants to keep it and the man doesn't, then the woman should keep it. Simple. What I'm saying is men are just as much the parent of a baby even though the woman carrys that baby.

    I'm saying that if either parent wants to keep the baby it should be kept. Each persons feelings are important, it never should it be one or the other. Why is that a problem?

    In response to other comments, about yes I have slept with plenty of people, or a person/handful of people who were never going to be long term partners or parents, that's fine I'm not saying people shouldn't, BUT there is always a risk of pregnancy and if you get pregnant and conception methods don't work, then my personal opinion is it's your fault you got pregnant (and the fathers). In this scenario I personally don't believe in abortion.

    I don't believe either as you insinuate I think men shouldn't be let off the hook when pregnancy occurs. That's exactly why I say they should have equal say in what happens next.

    Making a baby - mans responsibility 50%, woman's responsibility 50%

    Therefore decision to keep a baby - mans decision 50%, woman's decision 50%.


 

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