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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    So which is it- men are equals, or men are totally different?

    Fact is, men do not have the same investment in this issue as women do, because it is not their bodies on the line. It is not they who go through the surgery or medical induced abortion- it's women. They can have an opinion, sure, but it's not an equal one. So no, they should not be the ones legislating it- not without SIGNIFCANT consultation with women- because it is WOMEN affected primarily. I do not believe that a cabinet made up primarily of men will adequately interpret, understand or represent the interests of women without significant female input. And yes, the reverse is also true.
    Your question kind of proves the point I was making.

    Men and Women ARE equals, no matter what, but I refer to equal in value, importance, just as good as each other, however, there are ways in which we are different eg men have different reproductive systems to us meaning they can't carry babies and as women we need to accept that difference, it doesn't mean we are any less important or valuable, nor does it make men any less important or valuable.

    What it also means is that even though it takes two to make a baby, if both a man and a woman make a mistake or have an accident and conceive a child they should have the same say in that baby's life and as such, if the man wants to keep the baby and the mum doesn't, I don't think she has the right to terminate that mans baby.

    This is where I was heading with the first quote you had from me - women need to accept we are the ones who carry the baby (because we are different reproductively), and my second quote was that men and women should have the same say in that baby's life, or in having an opinion on abortion.

    Make sense!?

  2. #452
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    So, now that abortion is illegal except in the case of babies who are incompatible with life (hypothetically), what happens to all the babies who weren't wanted/people can't cope with(for whatever reason)/can't afford financially. Where do they go? What quality of life do they have? Are they at a far higher risk of disadvantage through drug and alcohol abuse simply from the knowlege they weren't wanted? If they're put up for adoption, with adoption laws the way they are, what happens to them? Foster carers, to be bounced from home to home and hope really hard you don't get cr@p ones?

    And if you tell me all those men who don't want the women to have an abortion are going to step up and also support the women they've forced to carry a baby to term through the psychological issues and physical issues that come with that, I will laugh at you.

    Which brings me to another point. What about the womens left over mental state? Post natal depression is becoming an increasingly huge issue among todays population. Can you imagine how much worse it could/would be due to being forced to go through pregnancy and birth for a baby you don't want? Or do we just not care about that and the possibility of severe PND resulting in a living, breathing persons death? Our mental health system is already overworked and under funded, there simply isn't the resources to help all the women who need it now, without adding to that.

    So, now that abortions are illegal, what happens to the women and babies afterward?

    This message is bought to you by my phone and is not part of my post.

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  4. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialPatrolGroup View Post
    I am genuinely not nitpicking, but I am not sure how these two reconcile. Firstly you say "no, you don't always get to decide" and then you say "we all have our own line" so but I don't know how these 2 can co-exist. Abortion is a tough tough issue and I agree with everything that Delirium said earlier. I am not comfortable with a group of people getting to decide how much control I have over my own body and them drawing their line, and expecting me, and all women to toe said line.
    Good question. I don't have any trouble reconciling the two because:
    - laws already mean we can't do whatever we want: lawmakers draw a line and make others follow all the time.
    - IMO (and I totally understand not everyone agrees) saving an innocent babies life is a more than acceptable threshold for interfering with a woman's bodily autonomy. And I'm going to be honest here (even though I will probabl get flamed) *most* of the time women have bodily autonomy/choice in the situation just at an earlier stage (the choice to have sex, use contraception properly, choose a good mate). So most of the time they already have a shot at controlling their destiny, I suppose that's one of the reasons why I don't feel so bad about taking away the right of a woman to abort for non medical reasons. If people wanted to stop a woman from piercing her ears or nose, using contraception then I would be up in arms. That's just where my line is.
    Last edited by VicPark; 30-11-2013 at 07:33.

  5. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post

    So, now that abortions are illegal, what happens to the women and babies afterward?
    Women (where possible) start taking responsibility (using contraception properly, choosing a good mate) and social services funding improves.

    I know this is full of holes, I'm not going to put too much thought into it since in reality abortion will never be banned here.

  6. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Or do we just not care about that and the possibility of severe PND resulting in a living, breathing persons death?
    I'm pretty sure that the living breathing woman comes last in this fantasy. So glad some of the people on this thread aren't law makers!

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  8. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the living breathing woman comes last in this fantasy. So glad some of the people on this thread aren't law makers!
    This is true, but I was also referring to the infant mortality rates that I have absolutely no doubt would increase with the increase of cases of severe PND in women where mental health help isn't available, or isn't as accessible. The rates of suicide I have no doubt would go up for pre and post natal women.

    I've just noticed a lot that pro-life people kind of don't give a thought to the heap of unwanted babies AFTER they're born. It's all well and good to make sure they are, but I think if people feel it's up to them to decide whether a woman can or can't or should or should not abort they should also be forced to face the realities of what they propose afterward. I'm not saying ALL women will end up with PND because of this, but I really believe it's a high likelihood. Ripple affect and all.

    This message is bought to you by my phone and is not part of my post.

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  10. #457
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    Have you any idea the failure rates of contraception? Seriously? It is not low you know. Why does it fall always on the woman? Seriously, you want men to have half the choice about terminating a baby - but yet they have to take no responsibility in not making the woman pregnant. The mind baffles, truly it does. 1950's called and they want their line back.



    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women (where possible) start taking responsibility (using contraception properly, choosing a good mate) and social services funding improves.

    I know this is full of holes, I'm not going to put too much thought into it since in reality abortion will never be banned here.

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  12. #458
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    [QUOTE=Jennaisme;7569929]This is true, but I was also referring to the infant mortality rates that I have absolutely no doubt would increase with the increase of cases of severe PND in women where mental health help isn't available, or isn't as accessible. The rates of suicide I have no doubt would go up for pre and post natal women.

    I hadn't even thought about that, but I believe you are right.

  13. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    So, now that abortion is illegal except in the case of babies who are incompatible with life (hypothetically), what happens to all the babies who weren't wanted/people can't cope with(for whatever reason)/can't afford financially. Where do they go? What quality of life do they have? Are they at a far higher risk of disadvantage through drug and alcohol abuse simply from the knowlege they weren't wanted? If they're put up for adoption, with adoption laws the way they are, what happens to them? Foster carers, to be bounced from home to home and hope really hard you don't get cr@p ones?

    And if you tell me all those men who don't want the women to have an abortion are going to step up and also support the women they've forced to carry a baby to term through the psychological issues and physical issues that come with that, I will laugh at you.

    Which brings me to another point. What about the womens left over mental state? Post natal depression is becoming an increasingly huge issue among todays population. Can you imagine how much worse it could/would be due to being forced to go through pregnancy and birth for a baby you don't want? Or do we just not care about that and the possibility of severe PND resulting in a living, breathing persons death? Our mental health system is already overworked and under funded, there simply isn't the resources to help all the women who need it now, without adding to that.

    So, now that abortions are illegal, what happens to the women and babies afterward?

    This message is bought to you by my phone and is not part of my post. <img src="images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" smilieid="92" class="inlineimg"
    In your second paragraph you make the assumption that scenario only happens when the dad is completely incompetent, hopeless, unable to be mature and supportive person and take care of the child and mother. You assume that all men fit into this category if this were the situation.

  14. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Have you any idea the failure rates of contraception? Seriously? It is not low you know. Why does it fall always on the woman? Seriously, you want men to have half the choice about terminating a baby - but yet they have to take no responsibility in not making the woman pregnant. The mind baffles, truly it does. 1950's called and they want their line back. <img src="images/smilies/laughing.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Laughing" smilieid="88" class="inlineimg"
    You conveniently left out the part she mentioned choosing a good mate. Only having s*x with someone who will support you if said contraception fails.

    What Vic Park mentioned was all of those things in combination.


 

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