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  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    And whilst Zoe's Law is happening in NSW, there is now a want to propose a bill to re-criminalise abortion in VIC, even though it was only decriminalised in 2008/09.

    I hope nothing comes of it, but here's some more info: http://www.news.com.au/national/shaw...-1226770014975
    I read about this, it's pretty disturbing stuff. Who are these men that would tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies??

  2. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I read about this, it's pretty disturbing stuff. Who are these men that would tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies??
    It's got nothing to do with Men V Women.

    There is sufficient precedence that says it is socially acceptable for people to make calls on the bodily autonomy of others based on their own social conscience. So a man (and a woman) are allowed to be distraught and frustrated at the thought of a healthy baby to another female being killed for non medical reasons. Just the same as many in society have spoken: euthanasia is not ok, either is suicide, jacking off in public or walking down the street with your boobs hanging out.

    Having a penis doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on a healthy baby being killed.

  3. #413
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    Of course they can have an opinion VP. But I don't think they should be able to pass law about it, and I certainly don't think they should have been allowed to vote in the Irish Referendum I mentioned.

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  5. #414
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    Exactly, Beebs.

    It's one thing to have an opinion based on your personal beliefs, but it is another story entirely when those opinions and beliefs are sneaking into politics, especially when those opinions and beliefs stem from religious morals and are impacting on the lives of women in our country.

    Ultimately, there are ALWAYS going to be women who want to terminate their pregnancies for a variety of reasons. Criminalising abortion (which I might add it was still a criminal offence here in Tasmania until this very week. Tasmania's bill was based on the one they now want to remove from VIC), is dangerous territory.

    Whilst criminalising abortion isn't the same as making it illegal, it still has pretty big ramifications. It makes it a lot harder for women to access safe abortion practices as well as reinstating and reinforcing the stigma around abortion, and when something is stigmatised, women who are wanting/needing an abortion, for their variety of reasons, are less likely to seek out the safe, medical procedure, and instead opt for more dangerous options.

    Shouldn't we, as a society, accept (though not necessarily agree with) that abortion is something that happens, and therefore, make it safe, legal and non-criminal, so those women who DO seek it out, can be safe? Do we really want a society that shuns abortion so much that women feel forced into unsafe practices, putting themselves at great risk, and the unborn at even greater risk?

    It all comes down to humanity. Is it more humane to provide a safe medical procedure for those who want/need it, and which has little risks of complications for the woman and the unborn. Or more humane to try and deny these safe practices and stigmatise them even further, and risk women opting for more dangerous scenarios with much, much greater risks to herself and the unborn?

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  7. #415
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    Yep this, a million times.^^

    In places where abortion is illegal - it still happens, it doesn't stop it, but it makes it unsafe. Backyard abortions and that used to happen right here in Oz.

    In places like Ireland, women travel to the UK to have theirs done. It does not stop it, at all. It just makes it either extremely dangerous or very difficult - which is just wrong. Abortions aren't a walk in the park - they are hard, stressful, often times extremely sad. It makes no sense to try and punish women who for whatever reason don't want to continue on with a pregnancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    Exactly, Beebs.

    It's one thing to have an opinion based on your personal beliefs, but it is another story entirely when those opinions and beliefs are sneaking into politics, especially when those opinions and beliefs stem from religious morals and are impacting on the lives of women in our country.

    Ultimately, there are ALWAYS going to be women who want to terminate their pregnancies for a variety of reasons. Criminalising abortion (which I might add it was still a criminal offence here in Tasmania until this very week. Tasmania's bill was based on the one they now want to remove from VIC), is dangerous territory.

    Whilst criminalising abortion isn't the same as making it illegal, it still has pretty big ramifications. It makes it a lot harder for women to access safe abortion practices as well as reinstating and reinforcing the stigma around abortion, and when something is stigmatised, women who are wanting/needing an abortion, for their variety of reasons, are less likely to seek out the safe, medical procedure, and instead opt for more dangerous options.

    Shouldn't we, as a society, accept (though not necessarily agree with) that abortion is something that happens, and therefore, make it safe, legal and non-criminal, so those women who DO seek it out, can be safe? Do we really want a society that shuns abortion so much that women feel forced into unsafe practices, putting themselves at great risk, and the unborn at even greater risk?

    It all comes down to humanity. Is it more humane to provide a safe medical procedure for those who want/need it, and which has little risks of complications for the woman and the unborn. Or more humane to try and deny these safe practices and stigmatise them even further, and risk women opting for more dangerous scenarios with much, much greater risks to herself and the unborn?

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  9. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    It's got nothing to do with Men V Women.

    There is sufficient precedence that says it is socially acceptable for people to make calls on the bodily autonomy of others based on their own social conscience. So a man (and a woman) are allowed to be distraught and frustrated at the thought of a healthy baby to another female being killed for non medical reasons. Just the same as many in society have spoken: euthanasia is not ok, either is suicide, jacking off in public or walking down the street with your boobs hanging out.

    Having a penis doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on a healthy baby being killed.
    VP what planet do you live on? If you honestly think that banning abortion is not a women's rights issue I suggest you do some further reading on the subject. I say this with respect- this is a MUCH bigger issue than you seem to think.
    You keep siting suicide as an example- I work in law enforcement and I can tell you, people that attempt suicide are not dealt with as criminals, they are dealt with under the mental health act.
    I agree with euthanasia and want to see it legalized. The other two examples aren't comparable as nudity and masturbation ARE legal in your own home.

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  11. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    Exactly, Beebs.

    It's one thing to have an opinion based on your personal beliefs, but it is another story entirely when those opinions and beliefs are sneaking into politics, especially when those opinions and beliefs stem from religious morals and are impacting on the lives of women in our country.

    Ultimately, there are ALWAYS going to be women who want to terminate their pregnancies for a variety of reasons. Criminalising abortion (which I might add it was still a criminal offence here in Tasmania until this very week. Tasmania's bill was based on the one they now want to remove from VIC), is dangerous territory.

    Whilst criminalising abortion isn't the same as making it illegal, it still has pretty big ramifications. It makes it a lot harder for women to access safe abortion practices as well as reinstating and reinforcing the stigma around abortion, and when something is stigmatised, women who are wanting/needing an abortion, for their variety of reasons, are less likely to seek out the safe, medical procedure, and instead opt for more dangerous options.

    Shouldn't we, as a society, accept (though not necessarily agree with) that abortion is something that happens, and therefore, make it safe, legal and non-criminal, so those women who DO seek it out, can be safe? Do we really want a society that shuns abortion so much that women feel forced into unsafe practices, putting themselves at great risk, and the unborn at even greater risk?

    It all comes down to humanity. Is it more humane to provide a safe medical procedure for those who want/need it, and which has little risks of complications for the woman and the unborn. Or more humane to try and deny these safe practices and stigmatise them even further, and risk women opting for more dangerous scenarios with much, much greater risks to herself and the unborn?
    Totally agree.
    Even groups like Amnesty International have called for abortion to be decriminalised. Why? Because criminalising doesn't stop it- it just makes it more dangerous. Many believe that adequate access to safe abortion is a human rights issue.

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  13. #418
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    Thing is though beebs, I think 'some' people do want the see some form of "justice" ...to see women punished for 'killing a baby/child' .

    There isn't much talk about education, prevention or alternatives from the pro life (anti abortion) side. It all seems to be about consequences.



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  15. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post

    Having a penis doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on a healthy baby being killed.
    Just on this sentence-
    A- many abortions are performed because that foetus (yes, it's unborn, it's technically a foetus, though you may choose to think of it as a baby) is NOT healthy. I would guess this applies to many later term abortions (I point this out because many people are less comfortable with later term abortions) You have no way of knowing how many "healthy" foetuses are aborted vs unhealthy. It's just a classic example of prolife emotive language designed to guilt.

    B- men can indeed have an opinion. But that's all it is. They do NOT have the right to legislate their opinions. These "opinions" are dangerous. If you don't believe me, google what happens to you if you suffer an ectopic pregnancy in El Salvador. No, I'll save you the trouble. You die. Because abortion is illegal there, no matter what. It doesn't matter that the pregnancy isn't viable. Because that foetus is granted personhood and a status above the pregnant woman.
    Last edited by Atropos; 29-11-2013 at 09:17.

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  17. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    And why didn't they offer Management options to the patient? Because the laws regarding termination are so strict, that the doctors were too scared to do it, even though they knew it was the right way to proceed. So yeah - absolutely has everything to do with termination laws in Ireland.
    I agree. And there would not have been such a fuss in Ireland if her death was in no way connected to the fact that abortion was illegal in any circumstances. The law is I believe being amended but just for extreme medical emergencies - but if you read some comments on Irish news sites you'd think abortion was going to be on demand at any stage of pregnancy. I know the abortion side of this debate is going off topic but it is interesting. In Ireland any form of birth control was deemed wrong as couples should only be having sex to try and get pregnant. Deciding when life starts is subjective. Morning after pill is wrong for some and even contraceptives as they prevent a potential person being conceived. So we need laws that make secular objective decisions about availability of abortions. Subjective ideas about when life starts shouldn't come into it in the legal sense.

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