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  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    Someone mentioned blueprints and how that a cluster of cells is like the blueprints and therefore an existing life... I guess I see that same scenario differently. A blueprint for a house, to me, is the POTENTIAL for a house to exist... but it's not yet a house.

    That's not to upset anyone who's been through the loss of an unborn baby, it's simply to explain the way that I can unemotionally view pregnancy and part of the reason why I think a mother's rights should always trump that of the baby. The mother is already a house. The unborn is but a blueprint.

    Of course, a mother who WANTS to have her baby is never going to feel unemotionally towards her unborn... but when it comes to the law, it needs to be cut-and-dry without emotion.

    I am not opposed to Zoe's Law and what Zoe's mother wants to achieve. I can understand why she would want that. If I went through similar, I would probably want the same. I'm not emotionally involved though so am not responding emotionally to what happened, and can see that there's a lot of harm that could come from this... and the potential harm that can be done from this law far outweighs the potential good that can come from it, IMO.
    it was me that said it. Never thought of myself as a house before, although by the end of this pregnancy i could be the size of one

    My point was that to me its still a life, from conception. Most women dont even know they are pregnant until after a missed period by which time that bunch of cells has a beating heart - to me thats a life

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoThisIsLove View Post
    No, i see what your saying. Guess we arent going to see eye to eye. Having the baby could turn out to be a real blessing, after all its part of the mother too?

    God doesnt cause people to die. The actions of others, themselves, illness, accidents etc do.

    The bible promises he will undo all the suffering and restore innocent people to life again, and the earth to its original perfect state - and more than make up for any suffering experienced now

    Anyway dont want to take this wayy off topic and into a sermon Feel free to PM me about it if you wish
    So why does he take credit for the good things? Or why do people thank god when great things happen, but then say he's not responsible for bad things?

    Why do people pray for help if he's just going to let people suffer?

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  4. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    This law says if a person hurts a pregnant woman and causes harm to her unborn child, they are guilty of hurting the woman and guilty of hurting the foetus. It's really not such a big leap to ask why the mother is allowed to terminate the foetus. Why is the foetus a person when a third party kills it but not when the mother asks a doctor to kill it. I can see future ramifications of this precedent. That's why I posted the thread and that's how the conversation evolved.

    I get that, and I know the conversation evolved. But I see a big difference as one is absolutely the mothers choice and the other is a violation of that, a criminal act by another causing deth to an otherwise wanted and healthy yet unborn baby. The bill specifically states it is not about abortion, it is a kind of third party insurance type legislation, that's all. The wording of the bill alone would be enough to void it from being used against women in any other way regarding personhood of a feotus. I don't think it's as much of a slippery slope as is being wondered about, just my opinion. I think there'd be much protest if it was ever used in such a way.

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  6. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetwood View Post
    I get that, and I know the conversation evolved. But I see a big difference as one is absolutely the mothers choice and the other is a violation of that, a criminal act by another causing deth to an otherwise wanted and healthy yet unborn baby. The bill specifically states it is not about abortion, it is a kind of third party insurance type legislation, that's all. The wording of the bill alone would be enough to void it from being used against women in any other way regarding personhood of a feotus. I don't think it's as much of a slippery slope as is being wondered about, just my opinion. I think there'd be much protest if it was ever used in such a way.
    Just reading this, I had a thought- what if this was applied to fathers- if the woman terminated a pregnancy he wanted...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoThisIsLove View Post
    No, i see what your saying. Guess we arent going to see eye to eye. Having the baby could turn out to be a real blessing, after all its part of the mother too?
    That is a hell of a gamble to take with a life. If a woman feels that she is further violated by carrying the child of her attacker, it is hard to imagine that she will consider the child a blessing once born. How unfair for a child to be born to someone who can't bond with him/her.

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    According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.

    ..but, yeh - probably best not to get into that in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I know. I can see issues though where someone may be a victim who is say assaulted and loses their bub at 19 weeks- how will they feel when their case is not considered under this law and the penalty is potentially 11 years+ less than if the assault took place the following week?

    I truly think that a better solution would be to adjust the current GBH charge.
    I get what you're saying, such vast difference in the penalty with only a weeks difference in gestation... Doesn't make sense. there are such differing opinions out there that I doubt a law would have been passed if the limit was set much lower, say 12 weeks. Setting the limit at 20 weeks (closer to viability) gave the law a greater chance at being passed, as more people are shocked at the thought of harm coming to a baby (including abortion) the older the baby is.

    How would you adjust the gbh law?
    - genuine question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Just reading this, I had a thought- what if this was applied to fathers- if the woman terminated a pregnancy he wanted...?
    it's totally unrelated to the bill... Goes against women's bodily autonomy. This bill has nothing to do with women terminating a oregnancy, nothing at all. I understand your POV but disagree it applies even remotely to this bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetwood View Post
    it's totally unrelated to the bill... Goes against women's bodily autonomy. This bill has nothing to do with women terminating a oregnancy, nothing at all. I understand your POV but disagree it applies even remotely to this bill.
    I wasn't saying it was related to the bill. It was a thought I had about the potential places this law could head in future. Not saying that the bill in its current incarnation would do this.
    I know you keep saying termination is unrelated to this bill. I did not ever say this bill applied to termination. My concern has always been the potential future ramifications of introducing such a bill. The fact that the first incarnation of this bill was drafted and put forth against the wishes of Zoe's family shows how things can be twisted to suit an agenda.

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