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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetwood View Post
    When I read this article way back when at the start of this thread, I interpreted the bill as being for the rights of BOTH mother and unborn child, allowing parents to get justice on behalf of their unborn otherwise healthy baby that is (fatally) injured due to another.

    This bill is not related to abortion in any way! And although I understand the arguments presented and am entirely pro-choice, I just don't see how it relates to this bill, and surely most of the supporters of this bill would NEVER agree to it if it in any way threatened women's rights of bodily autonomy!

    They way I see it, this bill allows for criminal charges on behalf of an unborn child if the parents choose that avenue. This is not about a mothers bodily autonomy at all and I see a clear distinction between that and criminal behaviour of another human causing injury or death. Two different things entirely
    If you read the whole thread, we have been talking about the potential for this law to create a precedent that leads to laws like those in parts of the US where women are prosecuted for endangering their unborn babies which led to a discussion of how it may impact abortion. The conversation evolved.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    If you read the whole thread, we have been talking about the potential for this law to create a precedent that leads to laws like those in parts of the US where women are prosecuted for endangering their unborn babies which led to a discussion of how it may impact abortion. The conversation evolved.
    Ive read the thread (most posts may have missed some) and have been following it. But I really don't see how this bill can be used in any way regarding abortion and women's rights in general. It would cause riots in this country if it were even suggested!

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    So it's ok at 18 weeks? 19? There is nothing clear cut here- this is another problem I see with this law.
    No it's not ok then either (in my opinion). I chose to talk about from 20 weeks because that's the threshold Zoe's law sets....

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    But if a woman got raped, she had no choice in that.

    Also, there's plenty of violence in the bible that god encouraged and condoned.
    No, but thats still not the childs fault either.

    It was his right as creator, to use violence when necessary to protect good people from the bad. All the violence thats noted in the bible wasnt automatically condoned by God, it is an historical account too of what was occurring.

    Anyway should have known it would get dragged into this, i only mentioned it as it helps explain why i feel the way i do.

    Even if i didnt believe in God i dont think i would agree with it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    No it's not ok then either (in my opinion). I chose to talk about from 20 weeks because that's the threshold Zoe's law sets....
    I know. I can see issues though where someone may be a victim who is say assaulted and loses their bub at 19 weeks- how will they feel when their case is not considered under this law and the penalty is potentially 11 years+ less than if the assault took place the following week?

    I truly think that a better solution would be to adjust the current GBH charge.

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  7. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Ok, that's fair enough. It's not that I don't get that. I'm not religious though. And we are a secular country. I don't believe religion should dictate legislation. To me, that bunch of cells is a bunch of cells that does grow into a baby. I do appreciate that. I just cannot agree with putting those cells or whatever in a position where they are legally more important than the woman. Thanks for your honesty.
    I dont believe that religion should dictate legislation either.

    Politics and religion shouldnt mix, Jesus himself advocated that

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    Atropos  (26-11-2013)

  9. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetwood View Post
    Ive read the thread (most posts may have missed some) and have been following it. But I really don't see how this bill can be used in any way regarding abortion and women's rights in general. It would cause riots in this country if it were even suggested!
    This law says if a person hurts a pregnant woman and causes harm to her unborn child, they are guilty of hurting the woman and guilty of hurting the foetus. It's really not such a big leap to ask why the mother is allowed to terminate the foetus. Why is the foetus a person when a third party kills it but not when the mother asks a doctor to kill it. I can see future ramifications of this precedent. That's why I posted the thread and that's how the conversation evolved.

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  11. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoThisIsLove View Post
    No, but thats still not the childs fault either.

    It was his right as creator, to use violence when necessary to protect good people from the bad. All the violence thats noted in the bible wasnt automatically condoned by God, it is an historical account too of what was occurring.

    Anyway should have known it would get dragged into this, i only mentioned it as it helps explain why i feel the way i do.

    Even if i didnt believe in God i dont think i would agree with it anyway.
    But it's ok to punish the mother?

    I'm just trying to understand, because lots of innocent people die and god doesn't save them.

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  13. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    But it's ok to punish the mother?

    I'm just trying to understand, because lots of innocent people die and god doesn't save them.
    No, i see what your saying. Guess we arent going to see eye to eye. Having the baby could turn out to be a real blessing, after all its part of the mother too?

    God doesnt cause people to die. The actions of others, themselves, illness, accidents etc do.

    The bible promises he will undo all the suffering and restore innocent people to life again, and the earth to its original perfect state - and more than make up for any suffering experienced now

    Anyway dont want to take this wayy off topic and into a sermon Feel free to PM me about it if you wish

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  15. #290
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    Someone mentioned blueprints and how that a cluster of cells is like the blueprints and therefore an existing life... I guess I see that same scenario differently. A blueprint for a house, to me, is the POTENTIAL for a house to exist... but it's not yet a house.

    That's not to upset anyone who's been through the loss of an unborn baby, it's simply to explain the way that I can unemotionally view pregnancy and part of the reason why I think a mother's rights should always trump that of the baby. The mother is already a house. The unborn is but a blueprint.

    Of course, a mother who WANTS to have her baby is never going to feel unemotionally towards her unborn... but when it comes to the law, it needs to be cut-and-dry without emotion.

    I am not opposed to Zoe's Law and what Zoe's mother wants to achieve. I can understand why she would want that. If I went through similar, I would probably want the same. I'm not emotionally involved though so am not responding emotionally to what happened, and can see that there's a lot of harm that could come from this... and the potential harm that can be done from this law far outweighs the potential good that can come from it, IMO.

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