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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaraB View Post
    That's fine. I didn't just pick up the phone. It was more complicated than that. But why should I go into details when you seem hell bent on discrediting me? And I don't even see the point ofyou doing that. I didnt even try to burst your pro abortion bubble geez. This is still a painful memory for me. I have no desire to share my personal details for you to pick apart at your leisure.
    I'm sorry it is painful for you.

    ..but thankyou for admitting that it was actually 'complicated' and not 'just simple' or 'remarkably easy'.

    That was my point.

    Take care.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 26-11-2013 at 17:53.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Yes I have considered this, and I understand the concern, that it may morph into encroaching on other areas. It's a valid point.

    I guess I just feel like women should have the right to charge someone that kills their baby. And deeming it not a life is placing a value judgment on this, which is what we are fighting against. We want women to be able to define what grows in their uterus according to what they think. Not what others think. We take offence to pro lifers defining it a baby when many believe it isn't. Yet by being against this new law we are effectively telling these women that bc we don't consider it a baby, then it isn't.

    Geez I find this subject so difficult, I have so many conflicting emotions.
    It isn't even that I don't consider fetus a baby, I do. But for me personally, unless said baby can survive unaided outside the uterus, then mother always comes first.

    I can see why someone would want someone convicted and put away someone for killing their baby, but I don't get why they place so much on terminology of law, does it really matter what it is called? Isn't it enough that GBH - just say with extended sentencing is the law it is put under?

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to beebs For This Useful Post:

    Atropos  (26-11-2013),Lillynix  (26-11-2013),SassyMummy  (26-11-2013)

  4. #263
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    A fetus = baby to me. I'm still 10000000% pro-choice.

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    RobinSparkles  (26-11-2013)

  6. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    IBut for me personally, unless said baby can survive unaided outside the uterus, then mother always comes first.
    Babies are surviving outside the womb now from 22-23 weeks. Had a hypothetical woman at 30 weeks pg not been hit by a drunk driver and went into labour herself that very day, there is a good chance the child could survive without her.

    It is a very complex issue, and again I totally get people's concerns this may open the flood gates. If it did that, I would not support it. I also understand the concern that this give the child personage, and given your points about abortion it may threaten access to safe abortion.

    Truthfully, I don't have the answers. All I know is if my baby died bc of a criminal act I would want justice. If there is a way to allow this, while keeping bodily autonomy intact, it would be best case scenario. But as I said, I acknowledge that may be too idealistic and not realistic.

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  8. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    A fetus = baby to me. I'm still 10000000% pro-choice.

    Yep I'm the same. but people are saying in this thread it isn't a baby. I'm arguing that each woman should have the right to define that herself. And this bill being taken away it could be argued, would mean women aren't able to recognise it as a baby.

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  10. #266
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    I don't think many babies born at 22 weeks would survive without assistance?

  11. #267
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    I don't think the baby in a mother's womb should be given personhood either.

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    SassyMummy  (26-11-2013)

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Babies are surviving outside the womb now from 22-23 weeks. Had a hypothetical woman at 30 weeks pg not been hit by a drunk driver and went into labour herself that very day, there is a good chance the child could survive without her.

    It is a very complex issue, and again I totally get people's concerns this may open the flood gates. If it did that, I would not support it. I also understand the concern that this give the child personage, and given your points about abortion it may threaten access to safe abortion.

    Truthfully, I don't have the answers. All I know is if my baby died bc of a criminal act I would want justice. If there is a way to allow this, while keeping bodily autonomy intact, it would be best case scenario. But as I said, I acknowledge that may be too idealistic and not realistic.
    I meant unaided, in that it would require no medical intervention to survive, that to me would be the only time I'd feel ok about a fetus having personhood, so no earlier than say 34 weeks. Even then that is a little early.

    But yeah, I personally still consider it a baby, but I still think a GBH law, that was perhaps tinkered with would still suffice in terms of charges for someone losing their baby due to a criminal act.

    I agree with you as well, it is a very tough one, there are certainly no easy answers!

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    Atropos  (26-11-2013)

  15. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveInTheBed View Post
    I'm sorry it is painful for you.

    ..but thankyou for admitting that it was actually 'complicated' and not 'just simple' or 'remarkably easy'.

    That was my point.

    Take care.
    I knew that's what you would say. And I will not agree with you because it was in fact easy for me to have approval for. I suppose it offends you to think that abortion rights might be made to look silly when it can be done for pretty much any reason as long as you know whst to say. It was not difficult in the slightest. You really need to be right, that seems to be your point. Have fun with that. I'm not interested in arguing with you about things I know. I was there. It was my experience- you can't tell me otherwise simply because you think so. This argument serves absolutely no useful purpose other than your amusement and self righteousness.

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  17. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    But these are your thoughts. Yes it's medically termed a fetus. To me it's a baby. And to many women it is. What I find difficult to process is that an unwanted child is a fetus, a wanted child is a baby. I've seen many pro choicers discuss abortion and say it's a fetus, but then when pg on the forum will call it a baby, give it a name, rub their belly.

    I actually don't have a problem with others considering it not a baby. But I think some need to understand some of us do. Yes I support choice. But for me, it's a baby. I realise what I consider it to be shouldn't factor into legislation or what a woman chooses to do. She has to decide herself. But as I said, does fighting this take women's right to consider their child a baby?? As pro choicers are we doing the very thing we are fighting against??
    I do understand where you're coming from. I know when pregnant my babies were babies to me- I was talking more from a legal standpoint. I don't think this fight detracts from how anyone wants to regard their unborns- I just meant in terms of legislation.

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