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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    So I fail to see an issue, it is about criminal acts! Not abortion.
    For now.

    I do sincerely hope that this law is not abused, but I am reluctant to assume that it won't be.

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  3. #92
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    Yes, there was that woman in the US who got done for having a few sips of champagne. She was arrested and charged because she was pregnant.

    The problem with these types of laws, is that they open up a can of worms regarding all types of things. Fred Nile is no saint, as much as he wants to be considered and him supporting this law makes me think it is about the pro life angle rather than Zoe, and what happened to Zoe etc.




    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    They are. That's exactly what the law says. 20 weeks gestation or weight of 400g will be given the same rights as a living, independent person.
    They say at this stage that it won't affect abortion rights- but look at the precedent. Why is a 20 week fetus treated as a being independent from another if it is killed accidentally (say a car crash) but not when it is killed on purpose (late term abortion)? What's the difference? If I can ask the question, so can others. Aldo agree with the points raised by @Jennaisme - this may well be one nasty can of worms. Looking at the US where they have similar laws- it's really scary!

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  5. #93
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    Who are these women VP? I've heard of a few crazy people in the news, but they made it to the news because they are the minority..and for bizarre reasons. Most people who have any kind of abortion, early, mid, late...are devastated by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Hey that's my line!

    Plenty I could say about women who treat the life of late term babies flippantly, but I won't because I don't want to confuse things and upset poor women who have had to have late term terminations for severe medical issues.

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  7. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    For now.

    I do sincerely hope that this law is not abused, but I am reluctant to assume that it won't be.
    I added to my post, my point is, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it. We may not. I just don't think getting worried about 'what ifs' that never eventuate, should stop such an important law being passed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    For now.

    I do sincerely hope that this law is not abused, but I am reluctant to assume that it won't be.
    Yes, this is what I'm thinking. I'm not a lawyer, but the amount of concern expressed by lawyers, doctors etc makes me think they must have a good reason to be trying to stop the legislation from passing.

    I also just read this. It's written by a lawyer explaining her concerns with the bill.

    She mentions another lawyer who doesn't support Zoe's bill, despite losing a baby when she was injured in a car crash.

    There are good reasons that the law has not previously recognised a foetus as a legal person.

    As Melbourne lawyer Hannah Robert has argued eloquently, legal personhood is a technical category (that sometimes includes non-humans, such as corporations) intended to enable the "person" to have an autonomous interaction with the law.
    Its purpose is not to define human life but to enable an autonomous interaction with the law.

    The notion doesn't make sense in the case of a foetus that is contained wholly within the body of a woman, nor is it appropriate for the law to confer legal rights on the foetus independently of its mother. Any interests or rights the foetus has should only ever be advanced through the mother.

    Robert also sustained injuries in a car accident when she was pregnant and lost her baby as a result. She understands the risks of recognising a foetus as a legal person.

    So too do the NSW Bar Association, the Women Lawyers Association, the Australian Medical Association, the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and medical indemnity insurers, all of which wrote to members of Parliament before yesterday's vote, urging them not to support the bill.
    Last edited by 1234Guest; 22-11-2013 at 12:25.

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  10. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I added to my post, my point is, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it. We may not. I just don't think getting worried about 'what ifs' that never eventuate, should stop such an important law being passed
    Agree!

    I couldn't think of anything worse than a woman being beaten or cleaned up by a drunk driver or any of those type of things and her unborn child's death not treated as a murder or a manslaughter. That child is not nothing.

    This law is a good thing. Thank god it's been passed.

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  12. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I added to my post, my point is, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it. We may not. I just don't think getting worried about 'what ifs' that never eventuate, should stop such an important law being passed
    See, I believe that we should absolutely be worried about the 'what ifs'. I believe it is important to understand all the possible ramifications that this law could have, whether they eventuate or not. We, as women, need to know and understand what potential this law can have if it is abused. We simply cannot assume it will be plain sailing.

    Women, pregnant women especially, often get the raw end of the stick when it comes to our bodily autonomy and our reproductive rights, and as such I feel we need to keep one step ahead.

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  14. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    See, I believe that we should absolutely be worried about the 'what ifs'. I believe it is important to understand all the possible ramifications that this law could have, whether they eventuate or not. We, as women, need to know and understand what potential this law can have if it is abused. We simply cannot assume it will be plain sailing.

    Women, pregnant women especially, often get the raw end of the stick when it comes to our bodily autonomy and our reproductive rights, and as such I feel we need to keep one step ahead.
    Yes, this is what Hannah Roberts is saying. That there is a strong possibility that the exemptions can be challenged:

    Zoe’s bill is drafted to create exceptions for anything done to the foetus by the mother, with her consent or by a medical professional.

    But this creates a situation where it is legal to take the life of some legal persons, but not others, depending on the consent of a third party (the mother).


    And it opens up the prospect of human rights claims being brought on behalf of a foetus. With that comes the prospect of challenges to the pro-choice exceptions built into Zoe’s law.
    Link to the full article : 'Why losing my daughter means I don't support Zoe's law'

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    The what ifs exist on both sides

    What if...

    My ex husband stabbed me in the stomach while I was at term killing the baby and injuring me, does he not deserve a murder charge?

    What if....

    I was driving to the shop and was t boned by a drunk driver resulting in the loss of my baby, should this not result in a charge reflecting that this baby died as a result of the drunk drivers actions?

    I'm all for women's rights and terminations it goes without saying but I'm equally invested in the rights of children which includes unborn ones.

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  17. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    And herein lies the problem.

    Illegal drugs, then legal ones that have POSSIBLE side effects, along with if you have a glass or two of wine (also a legal substance) and something has the potential to happen, smoking during pregnancy.

    Bodily autonomy or not, giving a fetus personhood will not end well for anyone.
    This is the part that worries me most that suddenly not only do pregnant women have to worry about doing/eating/ drinking the right things for their baby they could one day be charged for any transgression. Eg I couldn't face prenatal vitamins and ate plain foods early pregnancy, seems extreme but could someone see that as culpable if baby wasn't perfect? And I think saying a woman who takes drugs in pregnancy should be punished is missing the fact that they could be physically addicted and need help not hard hand of law. I don't trust legislation that's open to translation.

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