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  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    I was going to write another post on "the issue" until I came to this. Of course you are correct, as a mother, as a human being. That's why this is a terrible tragedy that has no real solution, and you would have to have a heart of lead not to see it.

    But condoning irregular migration flows is really, really not the answer. Australia can make a real difference to the plight of literally thousands of people every year, but to do that we need an orderly migration program that has broad community support.
    I'm really glad to see that you can acknowledge that despite viewing the issue from a different angle.

    Eta-
    On the issue of community support, would you agree that media coverage, as manipulated by the govt and Murdoch etc, has a lot to answer for in how asylum seekers are viewed?

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  3. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    On the issue of community support, would you agree that media coverage, as manipulated by the govt and Murdoch etc, has a lot to answer for in how asylum seekers are viewed?
    Of course, and I say that as someone who worked for the Murdoch press for 13 years! But in the end the pointy end of this question will be whether the boats dry up in March-April and Indonesia no longer has to deal with the social problem of thousands of people funding the widescale corruption of their police and military in western Java.

  4. #233
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    But 5 million Hazara refugees aren't getting on a boat to Australia....in fact, in the scheme of things there is only a very small amount coming to Australia that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    Okay, how does that work? There are more than 5 million Hazara in Afghanistan, almost all of whom could legitimately claim to be at risk of persecution, either now or in the very near future.

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  6. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    But 5 million Hazara refugees aren't getting on a boat to Australia....in fact, in the scheme of things there is only a very small amount coming to Australia that way.
    Correct. But I'd be willing to bet that the numbers have been doubling (at least) each year since 2009, until the Rudd PNG move on July 19.

    You don't need a PhD in statistics to realize that this becomes unsustainable very quickly.

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    Have they doubled because the government has been slack, or because things are worse overseas than they were in 2009? I would deb willing to bet it is because the world is going through lots of trouble in terms of war, displacement etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    Correct. But I'd be willing to bet that the numbers have been doubling (at least) each year since 2009, until the Rudd PNG move on July 19.

    You don't need a PhD in statistics to realize that this becomes unsustainable very quickly.

  8. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Have they doubled because the government has been slack, or because things are worse overseas than they were in 2009? I would deb willing to bet it is because the world is going through lots of trouble in terms of war, displacement etc.
    That would be true of Syrians today, who probably now represent the fastest growing segment of irregular migrants into Europe, particularly across the Greek and Bulgarian borders with Turkey.

    For Hazara trying to get to Australia after 2008, the increase was without question because the dismantling of previous policy instruments meant there was strong likelihood of success in travelling the people-smuggling route. I don't think their situation in Afganistan or Pakistan is materially worse than it was five years ago, although that could change after the US withdrawal.

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  10. #237
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    Nobody is saying that people smuggling is good, or safe or anything like that. But at the end of the of the day, the only thing we are successfully doing is turning people who need help around, washing our hands of them, not helping them and saying "see, we've stopped the boats". Which at this point in time is clearly not true. There has to be empathy when dealing with people fleeing for their lives, and our Government and most Australians are not dealing with this issue with empathy. That is really the wrong way to go about it.

    Why is it that people in refugee camps deserve more help? Of course they need help, the world needs to step up to the plate and really help these people. But in my eyes a life is a life, and just because someone hasn't gone down the refugee camp route, does not make their life less valid in my eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post

    Why is it that people in refugee camps deserve more help? Of course they need help, the world needs to step up to the plate and really help these people. But in my eyes a life is a life, and just because someone hasn't gone down the refugee camp route, does not make their life less valid in my eyes.
    I think people feel uncomfortable that asylum seekers with $$ can get a fast tracked ticket to Australia whereas asylum seekers without $$ spend years languishing in hell holes know as refugee camps.

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  13. #239
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    @beebs

    I think in fact "the boats" will stop. Morrison appears to be less of a dolt than I expected and the current policy settings seem to be genuinely effective in breaking the people-smuggling business model.

    On the broader question, it is not question of who is somehow more "worthy" to come to Australia, but of managing an orderly migration program with a large humanitarian component that has broad public support.

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  15. #240
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    But what of those people we have sent back, what happens to them now? Do we even care?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    @beebs

    I think in fact "the boats" will stop. Morrison appears to be less of a dolt than I expected and the current policy settings seem to be genuinely effective in breaking the people-smuggling business model.

    On the broader question, it is not question of who is somehow more "worthy" to come to Australia, but of managing an orderly migration program with a large humanitarian component that has broad public support.


 

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