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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiedoll View Post
    See this is why I don't like the climate tax, or the rules regarding energy from renewable sources. It's easy for some to say just pay more, a lot of people are suffering because of this mentality (pensioners who can't afford three meals a day, or to turn the heater on in winter). Our electric bills tripled (in summer it gets to around $1500), obviously our pay stayed the same. Some weeks we put almost as much on the power as we do on rent. As a low income family that stings quite a bit (but at least we're still able to get by).

    I think a better approach would be to organize schemes and grants to invent energy efficient technology, and to help businesses upgrade to better equipment. Manufacturing in this country is taking a dive because its so much cheaper to make things in Overseas (I'm thinking about Bonds for one), making it more expensive is just illogical. It's costing jobs and tax revenue.
    At a personal level, we are currently renovating our home, we plan to install water tanks, a grey water system, solar panels and put in a small garden (we already have chickens). We'd love to be as self sufficient as possible and I feel it's a good way to help the environment.

    I am very concerned with the environment, and I think we should all do our bit, (recycle, support businesses that use efficient processes, put up panels, the list goes on ), but I also don't want to see people suffering.




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    There is plenty the government could do, but won't do, for fear of upsetting big business and the wealthiest people's, whose pockets get lined so the more they are allowed to get away with polluting the planet etc

    We have so much to lose by not doing what we can to ensure we care for the planet.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    The science clearly is not settled.
    That's the point of science, it's always improving, always in search of the truth. If scientists found evidence that the world was flat and the evidence met quality criteria then science text books would change. The fastest and easiest way a scientist can make money and/or get notoriety is to find strong evidence of an accepted scientific theory.

  4. #103
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    There should probably be some kind of scale, low income earners don't pay anything, the more you earn the more you pay or something like that. What I find really amusing, is everyone going on about hte carbon tax, but saying nothing about the elec and gas increases that we have all the time anyway, elec went up by 450% in the 5 years before Carbon tax.

    I also believe that all houses should have solar - if that means govt subsidises then all good.

    I don't want to see people suffering either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amiedoll View Post
    See this is why I don't like the climate tax, or the rules regarding energy from renewable sources. It's easy for some to say just pay more, a lot of people are suffering because of this mentality (pensioners who can't afford three meals a day, or to turn the heater on in winter). Our electric bills tripled (in summer it gets to around $1500), obviously our pay stayed the same. Some weeks we put almost as much on the power as we do on rent. As a low income family that stings quite a bit (but at least we're still able to get by).

    I think a better approach would be to organize schemes and grants to invent energy efficient technology, and to help businesses upgrade to better equipment. Manufacturing in this country is taking a dive because its so much cheaper to make things in Overseas (I'm thinking about Bonds for one), making it more expensive is just illogical. It's costing jobs and tax revenue.
    At a personal level, we are currently renovating our home, we plan to install water tanks, a grey water system, solar panels and put in a small garden (we already have chickens). We'd love to be as self sufficient as possible and I feel it's a good way to help the environment.

    I am very concerned with the environment, and I think we should all do our bit, (recycle, support businesses that use efficient processes, put up panels, the list goes on ), but I also don't want to see people suffering.




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  6. #104
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    No. I don't. But I do think, when we are talking about something that is potentially devastating to the planet (I said potentially mind) that we should err on the side of caution, assume that it is heading for the worst and try every thing we can to make sure it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    So you don't think the science is settled?
    Humans are contributing to climate change. I don't deny that.
    It is a question as to how much that effect is. That question is not settled. Or do you think that it is?

  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiedoll View Post
    See this is why I don't like the climate tax, or the rules regarding energy from renewable sources. It's easy for some to say just pay more, a lot of people are suffering because of this mentality (pensioners who can't afford three meals a day, or to turn the heater on in winter). Our electric bills tripled (in summer it gets to around $1500), obviously our pay stayed the same. Some weeks we put almost as much on the power as we do on rent. As a low income family that stings quite a bit (but at least we're still able to get by).

    I think a better approach would be to organize schemes and grants to invent energy efficient technology, and to help businesses upgrade to better equipment. Manufacturing in this country is taking a dive because its so much cheaper to make things in Overseas (I'm thinking about Bonds for one), making it more expensive is just illogical. It's costing jobs and tax revenue.
    At a personal level, we are currently renovating our home, we plan to install water tanks, a grey water system, solar panels and put in a small garden (we already have chickens). We'd love to be as self sufficient as possible and I feel it's a good way to help the environment.

    I am very concerned with the environment, and I think we should all do our bit, (recycle, support businesses that use efficient processes, put up panels, the list goes on ), but I also don't want to see people suffering.




    Sent from my iPhone using Bub Hub app
    If you're a low income family, you would have been very generously compensated for the carbon tax. Any other electricity price increase would be other factors.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...a-wages-rising

  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    No, what was on it?
    Debunking Alan jones who was almost exploding at the ipcc report "error" that was published in The Australian.

  9. #107
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    From my previous article:

    http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2013928102534465140

    Thomas Stocker, co-chair of the IPCC Working Group I

    'In response to media reports about a so-called "warming hiatus", Stocker said the climate system is dynamic, with more heat likely going into oceans in recent years and slightly slowing the rate of surface temperature increases.

    The science around climate change is well established. More than 100 years ago, researchers demonstrated that carbon dioxide (CO2) traps heat from the sun. Burning fossil fuels, deforestation and other human activities put additional CO2 into the atmosphere, where it remains essentially forever. That additional CO2 is trapping additional heat, as it acts like another layer of insulation.

    More than 90 percent of this additional heat energy is being absorbed by the oceans, according to the AR5, officially known as the Summary for Policy Makers. This explains why temperatures at the surface are not higher than today’s global average increase of 0.8 C.

    The summary highlights the fact that the decrease in Arctic sea ice over the last three decades is "unprecedented" in the last 1,450 years. This year’s summer sea ice melt was less than last year’s record, but it still was the sixth lowest ever measured. The report says the Arctic is on track to be ice-free in summer before 2050, much sooner than previous reports projected.'

    How the IPCC and this report works:

    'The AR5 is a five-year effort by hundreds of scientists from 39 countries to assess, evaluate and synthesise the findings of 9,200 peer-reviewed scientific studies published since the last review in 2007, called the AR4. The IPCC does not do any research itself and is run by 110 governments who spent the last four days approving the final wording of the summary.

    "Every word in the 36-pages has been debated. Some paragraphs were discussed for over an hour," Stocker said at a press conference in Stockholm. "No other science report has ever undergone such critical scrutiny."

    The 2000-plus page full report of Working Group I on the physical science underlying climate change will be published Monday. That is the first of four IPCC reports to be released in the coming year.

    The cautiously-worded Summary for Policy Makers details and confirms the observed impacts such as increased temperatures, precipitation changes, weather extremes and more. It also confirms these and other impacts will worsen as CO2 emissions increase. Current CO2 emissions levels are at the top of the worst-case scenario.

    "Do not misunderstand the low end of the temperature and other ranges in the report," said Michel Jarraud, secretary-general of the World Meteorological Organisation.

    Every word in the 36-pages has been debated... No other science report has ever undergone such critical scrutiny.'

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    Have you at least read the summary for policy makers?

    In my opinion, the key paragraph is this one.

    There is very high confidence that models reproduce the more rapid warming in the second half of the 20th century, and the cooling immediately following large volcanic eruptions. Models do not generally reproduce the observed reduction in surface warming trend over the last 10–15 years. There is medium confidence that this difference between models and observations is to a substantial degree caused by unpredictable climate variability, with possible contributions from inadequacies in the solar, volcanic, and aerosol forcings used by the models and, in some models, from too strong a response to increasing greenhouse-gas forcing.
    As I said before, no one is debating that CO2 can cause warming, which Kirst still feels it is worth referring to. The debate is about how accurate the models are, and to what extent CO2 can actually drive a complex climate system.
    The IPCC clearly doesn't know everything based on the above paragraph.
    There are still many unknowns, and the evidence is indicating that it has not been as bad as they thought it was going to be.
    Last edited by Father; 01-10-2013 at 12:28.

  11. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by sockstealingpoltergeist View Post
    Silly Beebs, Father knows best.

    Father even if by some tiny chance you were right. What would be the harm in putting in place things to help protect the planet?

    I will never understand why caring for the planet, is a bad thing.
    I know you will not listen to a word I say, despite answering this point on many occasions.

    So maybe you will listen to Dr Bjorn Lomborg. He has a very level headed view on what actions should be taken regarding climate change.

    Here is an article he wrote yesterday.

    http://ideas.time.com/2013/09/30/cli...#ixzz2gPz2oADi

  12. #110
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    Haha, so cute Father. You mean Dr Bjorn Lomborg who has a PhD in Political Science, not climate science and has no peer reviewed articles in climate science. Crack. me. up

    http://www.lomborg-errors.dk/

    This is one of his ideas for reducing global warming;

    In one instance, Lomborg envisioned a fleet of 1900 robotic ships that will patrol the ocean while releasing spouts of ocean water to reflect the sun's rays in an attempt to reduce global warming.

    hahaha. Best idea ever!
    Last edited by beebs; 05-10-2013 at 20:57.

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