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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I quote you a reference in that Bible that shows that slavery is ungodly and sinful, and you respond with a link that doesn't even mention that quote in their list of slavery references.

    I'm not sure when the word 'homosexuality' first appeared in the Bible, I might look into that, but I don't see the relevance to Rudd's interpretation of slavery.
    As I said, the word homosexuality did not appear until 1946. I'm surprised you didn't know this. Do go and read up on it, it's an interesting argument.

    Regarding slavery and Rudd's comment, I did say earlier that as much of the bible acknowledges it but does not condemn it, it can be seen that it was an accepted, or 'normal' condition. Even Jesus is not recorded as speaking out against is. Now, I'm no Christian myself, but my understanding is that he is pretty central to Christianity- you'd thing he'd have said something if he had a problem with slavery?

    And because I didn't essentially tell you what you'd already told me, that makes all those other quotes invalid?? Did you read all the other verses? Ill paste them here for you:
    (From religioustolerance.org)

    Other references to slavery in the Christian Scriptures:

    People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in the first century CE:

    Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."
    Priests still owned slaves:

    Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"
    Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

    This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it:

    Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
    One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:

    Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
    Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:

    Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

    1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"
    In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.

    1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

    Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amiedoll View Post
    In our society a relationship isn't quite cemented without marriage (especially with older generations). As a non religious person I find great satisfaction in my marriage (a celebrant performed a nice non religious ceremony). I don't care about "in the eyes of god" because I don't believe in it, it doesn't make my marriage any less important to me


    Sent from my iPhone using Bub Hub app
    I don't agree that a relationship isn't cemented without marriage. In fact, I actually find that sentiment a bit offensive. Most of the people in my family aren't married, and i consider their relationships just as valuable and enduring as a married couple.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Yes, I'm aware - thanks for the condescending tone though.

    But, really, this puzzles me even more. Why would you want to be part of a church that doesn't approve of your lifestyle? Surely it is hypocritical - I have faith in the teachings of this church, oh but I would like it to change its teachings to fit my own personal beliefs?
    As I was just saying to father, there is some contention over whether or not the bible itself actually forbids homosexuality. It's not a matter of changing the church, but perhaps, correcting it.

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  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    I think the point is that the bible says many things that are contradictory (being written by a number of different people). It also says many things that are specific to the time and culture in which it was written, and shouldn't be taken literally in our time and culture. Rudd was saying that the overarching message of the new testament is one of love and tolerance, and that is what we should focus on.
    I'm pretty sure I'm being unclean in the eyes of god when I eat a prawn. You lucky people with shellfish allergies.

    It also says many things that are specific to the time and culture in which it was written, and shouldn't be taken literally in our time and culture.

    I had to highlight this because that's precisely it. I really wish more people realised that the bible was written in a particular historical period by particular people and therefore reflects the ideas of that period (particularly in regards to clean and unclean animals, slavery, women's rights, etc) - there are very legitimate historical reasons for those things being included in the bible but they have very little bearing on the present.

    Why don't more people appreciate history? WHY?
    Last edited by snowqu33n; 04-09-2013 at 12:47.

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  7. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathermy View Post
    I don't claim to be an expert but I imagine ones relationship with god is for them distinct from that with any church or organized religion.
    This makes sense. But in that situation, they wouldn't need to be married by the Church to keep peace with their god.

  8. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    As I was just saying to father, there is some contention over whether or not the bible itself actually forbids homosexuality. It's not a matter of changing the church, but perhaps, correcting it.
    Ahh well then that is a religious matter and not something that our political leaders need to get involved with.

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  10. #117
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    I wonder.. If humans are made in the image of God, and are exactly as God intended but homosexuality is a sin.. Does that mean God screwed up somewhere? 'Cause.. That's pretty fascinating, right there.

    ETA: In regards to the prawns..

    Being unclean has never been so tasty.. Mmm...
    Last edited by Jennaisme; 04-09-2013 at 13:00.

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  12. #118
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    Witwicky is offline A closed mouth gathers no foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Like what (in Australia)?
    Legal and social recognition, protection of human rights, immediate access to all relationship entitlements (without having to undertake an arduous process to prove your relationship, such as the issues mentioned early regarding court matters), the ability to produce a marriage certificate immediately if required in certain circumstances, sense of acceptance by the community, which is proven to improve mental health , the act of making a legal commitment, which is important to many people.
    Last edited by Witwicky; 04-09-2013 at 12:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Yes, I'm aware - thanks for the condescending tone though.

    But, really, this puzzles me even more. Why would you want to be part of a church that doesn't approve of your lifestyle? Surely it is hypocritical - I have faith in the teachings of this church, oh but I would like it to change its teachings to fit my own personal beliefs?
    To be honest - it 'puzzles me' why anyone in this day and age would want to adhere to a bronze aged myth that has been twisted and edited through time to suit the individual churches and the people who attend. -- but that's not the point, I digress.

    I guess the answer to your question is most people who identify with this belief go with the "god loves ALL his children' thang? And I suspect a number of people do not take it all so literally - being read in our time and culrure, and all.

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  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    I don't agree that a relationship isn't cemented without marriage. In fact, I actually find that sentiment a bit offensive. Most of the people in my family aren't married, and i consider their relationships just as valuable and enduring as a married couple.
    That's great, but many people do consider a wedding to be an important thing. I'm a happily married atheist. It was important to me to formalise our commitment, publicly. And important to me to have my DH legally recognised as my spouse. If you don't fell the same, that's totally find. I don't think it's worth getting defended about personally.

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