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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamasurfs View Post
    yes, bits its affecting someone. It's affecting the child.
    I just can't wrap my head around it. Who does it harm? No one.
    I hate that in this thread people who are against have said "I don't want to elaborate here" in fear of having people attack them, I really want to understand the other view point, with some solid reasons. Not because it's "unnatural" not because "I don't like it".
    I won't judge.
    Ok, in the spirit of VicPark's posts, I'm going to try to put forward a perspective that *may* represent the anti gay-marriage argument. Note, I'm not against gay marriage myself, but I think VP is onto something when she suggest we try to understand other points of view. I also think it is a fun intellectual exercise to argue from the other side.

    I think some people feel that it isn't good for kids to be raised by same sex parents. I would assume that many people who are anti gay-marriage also don't like the idea of single parents raising kids alone and feel that children are missing out on something important if they don't have both a male and female parent around. So perhaps the argument is that the nuclear family is a fundamental requirement for the healthy development of young children, and that gay-marriage with take this right away from some children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Ok, in the spirit of VicPark's posts, I'm going to try to put forward a perspective that *may* represent the anti gay-marriage argument. Note, I'm not against gay marriage myself, but I think VP is onto something when she suggest we try to understand other points of view. I also think it is a fun intellectual exercise to argue from the other side.

    I think some people feel that it isn't good for kids to be raised by same sex parents. I would assume that many people who are anti gay-marriage also don't like the idea of single parents raising kids alone and feel that children are missing out on something important if they don't have both a male and female parent around. So perhaps the argument is that the nuclear family is a fundamental requirement for the healthy development of young children, and that gay-marriage with take this right away from some children.
    Since when does marriage necessarily mean having children?

    And in response to previous posts, for those who believe same sex attracted people should continued to be discriminated against and not allowed to marry because its not natural, I assume you also then believe that IVF should not be allowed? Because clearly it's going against nature. Nature intended for some people to be infertile or have problems conceiving and IVF allows them to have children. Or is that different? And if so, why?

    Anti same sex marriage arguments are weak. Hence the lack of responses from those who are against it. As Delirium said, they hide behind the veil of being bullied or ganged up against because in actual fact they have weak arguments that they cannot defend.

    And DaveTTC, by virtue of the fact that you have said you wouldn't vote against it, that says to me that you know that your belief is discriminatory. If you felt as strongly about it as you come across then you would stand by your view regardless of what others think.

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  4. #283
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    I think they could have just said that if that was their argument. That would have been much easier than going around in circles about what's normal and what isn't.

    Even still, those who are prejudiced against same sex couples and single parents can easily not be involved in either (although the latter isn't so easy to guarantee - nobody is immortal or fully able to control others) and leave others in peace to live their own lives. I'm not a huge fan of the nuclear family being the 'norm' but I don't argue that others shouldn't be able to participate because of my feelings.
    Last edited by Benji; 12-09-2013 at 11:15.

  5. #284
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    rainbow road is offline look at the stars, look how they shine for you
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  6. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainbow road View Post
    Doesn't surprise me in the least.

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    I'm in a same sex relationship and I am currently 11 weeks pregnant. The child is legally the child of both myself and my partner, even if we separated before birth it would be illegal for me to not put my partner of the birth certificate. There are same sex couples out there everywhere in the same situation. The argument against same sex marriage on the grounds of keeping families traditional is flawed, marriage or not, we can still create a family together. Stopping same sex marriage is just denying us the legal rights that come with marriage. I could go on about how not having those rights impacts me, but this video pretty much explains some of the points better than I could possibly hope to explain. It's long but it's really worth it.

    http://youtu.be/k2CdX_y9L9w

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  9. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
    Since when does marriage necessarily mean having children?
    I doesn't necessarily mean having children, but would legitimise same sex parent families.

  10. #288
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    Busy-Bee is offline Offending people since before Del :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    I think some people feel that it isn't good for kids to be raised by same sex parents. I would assume that many people who are anti gay-marriage also don't like the idea of single parents raising kids alone and feel that children are missing out on something important if they don't have both a male and female parent around. So perhaps the argument is that the nuclear family is a fundamental requirement for the healthy development of young children, and that gay-marriage with take this right away from some children.
    I think you could be right but I think that for some people it is considered so radical that they simply don't feel that it fits with 'normal' society standards. A similar example might be a woman having a child out of wedlock. Years ago it was considered so far outside society's view of what was 'right' or 'normal' that it was considered quite shocking. (My Mum told me about a time she worked in a typing pool in the 1950s and one of their colleagues was pregnant but not married and she was the unfortunate brunt of a lot of harsh gossip. My Mum being quite progressive tells me she did not partake in the gossip as she realised that it could have been any one of her colleagues in that position.) For a long time having a child out of wedlock was so frowned upon that the state forcible took the babies off the mothers because it was considered best for the child. Over time though it became more 'normal' because we realised that there is nothing sinister about a woman having a child out of wedlock. It does not mean the mother is unfit, does not equate to the degradation of society, the father is also equally responsible for the child and the vast majority of people get along with life as they choose.

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    Yep. You could have been lucky like my mother and have your newborn ripped from you without your consent or even knowledge. Or even luckier like my brother who was passed around from foster home to foster home and is now a very messed up man when he had a wonderful biological mother who would have loved him to bits. I find morality when it comes to these issues a funny thing - because at one point people saw what happened to my brother preferable to single motherhood!

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  13. #290
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    I'm playing devil's advocate here. Please let me know if I offend anyone and I'll stop.
    I had a quick look at that study rainbow road referred to. Social science studies are notoriously difficult to do objectively because you can't get a unbiased random sample of the population - i.e. you can't force people to participate in the study if they don't want to. So this study relied on people coming forward of their own volition and volunteering to be part of the research. It is not surprising that people volunteering for a study on child health well being will have healthy and well adjusted children. Parents of socially maladjusted children are unlikely to come forward for this type of scrutiny.


 

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