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  1. #211
    MilkingMaid's Avatar
    MilkingMaid is offline Winner 2009 - Mod Award - most supportive member
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    I was actually going to say the same thing NB, I've been here a long time, and not seen that, but obviously have not read every thread that's ever been posted!

    Well, I'd hope stuff like that doesn't go on now.

    I was just thinking about the father, someone posted that he was an alcoholic, and he possibly was (I've not seen it reported anywhere) and because I've been through the PND suicidal stuff/numbness/dissociation from reality etc, I can most definitely empathise with the Mother, but it is a heck of a lot harder for me to summon up empathy or feel any kind of understanding for the father, my brain just won't compute what he must have done to be present in the household with all this going on.
    And I guess that stems from my own experience of being totally abandoned by my own partner when I needed him most, something I can never forgive him for, so my perceptions of this father are most definitely coloured in that way as well.
    Our own experiences, or lack of really do shape our reactions to things and our version of reality, unless we were flies on the wall at the time of all of this, none of us are ever really going to know what happened during that time, or exactly why.

    No real point to this!

    I really hope deaths like these this continue to be rare, and even rarer still...

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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by onionskin View Post
    I am so glad the mods decided to reopen this thread. We need to talk about cases like this, if we ever want change. Silence is part of the problem.
    Totally agree

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  5. #213
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    Quite recently I have seen a member who has had regular run-ins with other members get much sympathy, support and advice from the very people they have has run-ins with. They said they weren't coping and that is all it took for people to rally behind them.

    I've seen another incredibly outspoken and often disagreed with former member be inundated with support when she lost a baby.

    I'm really struggling to think of times when members have been turned on for asking for support. If they have been then that is appalling and it should be called out at the time.

  6. #214
    ~Marigold~'s Avatar
    ~Marigold~ is offline You make me happy, when skies are grey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Sorry, I was using your post as an example, but since you bring it up.

    I find questioning whether an 11 year old child told anyone or tried to get help to be blaming her and putting that responsibility on her.
    I have no compassion for someone who starves their children to death. For the mother and the father. Alcoholism is also a mental illness and from my understanding the father is also an alcoholic.

    I have a hard line in regards to mental illness. I wont accept it as a reaaon for murder, no matter what the mental illness is. I see it a lot on here, actually. In the news stories, someone killed someone and they're found to have a mental illness but they're never excused for it on that ground and no one wants compassion for them. They want justice.

    I want justice for those two babies and I want it for the 11 year old who has to live with this for the rest of her life, and explain over and over again that she did try to get help. No one listened to her. And feel the weight of that on her until the day she dies.

    The mother knew her children were dead. She went and sat and looked at them afterward. But still she let her 11 year old find them. Find their decomposing bodies in their crib.

    No, I have no compassion for a mother who would willingly inflict that torture on her children.
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    I totally get what you're saying. I'm one of the "the ones" who has brought up and discussed the mental illness side of things in this thread. I think I'll add my final thoughts and leave it at that, as tbh this thread and the details of the horror and pain that those poor babies have endured is overwhelming me right now and I think I need to stop reading/talking about it as it's genuinely disturbing me.
    Having said that, I just wanted to say, in my opinion, yes, the mother saw that her babies had died. She stated that she did go and look at them. The thing is, with the complete mental deterioration of her sanity, she probably could not comprehend what she was seeing or had done. Yes, she knew they were dead. But what that meant to her at the time (and probably throughout the entire ordeal of starving and neglecting them) isn't the same as it would be for most of us; because, again, her mental state was... for want of a better word.. gone, just gone. She had began functioning and living as a physical entity only by that stage.. her mind had stopped any rational functioning long before her twins died.
    I guess my point is, I understand where you and others are coming from, I really do and I feel the exact same anger, disgust and disbelief as you. I don't think that this woman willingly killed her children... if that makes sense.. her actions eventually lead to their death, but again, I'm trying understand what took place in the mind of this woman to have this horrific event take place. That's all. Not making "excuses" for her, just looking into and addressing the fact that something inside the brain of this woman essentially broke, closed down and ceased to function, her every maternal instinct and rationale failed.
    Last edited by ~Marigold~; 17-08-2013 at 14:02.

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  8. #215
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    Did something inside the father break, too? To have his paternal instincts and rationale completely evaporate even to the point of ignoring requests from his MIL to check on his children, he still didn't. He lived in the house and failed his children as horrendously.

    I have understanding of severe mental health issues. Understanding but not compassion after someone dies. Up until the point they kill someone I have understanding and compassion and empathy and sympathy and do all I can to help them. But then they are responsible for the death of someone due to that and it ends. I have compassion for their victims, for the lives destroyed by them. I have understanding of what the victims have to live with, compassion in abundance to the point my heart breaks for them.

    Everyone has their line. Theres mine.

    I understand why people find it easier to feel compassion for the mother and her mental issues over the father. PND is a mental illness women primarilly are affected by and suffer from. I believe there should be more done to catch the early warning signs, help these people who ask for help and noticing the people who are too ashamed to ask for it and offering it to them. I have compassion for them and I understand your mental state deteriorating to the point where killing a child in your care is actually a very real, and almost followed through with, possibility. And up until the point where you actually kill a child, I have all the compassion and understanding in the world.


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    Oh right - so people who have a different view from a certain straight shooter have mental health issues, are lonely, bored and lazy - That must be it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    probably predisposed to mental problems? Predisposed to have values that make them empathise with a mother who has killed her kids?? What exactly predisposes one to that!!

    Things are often polarised on here but yes, we are a community of parents, mainly mums, and we are (for the most part) well educated on PND (going off this thread and other recent ones) but I don't think that means we are predisposed to "mental problems"- you don't have to be, to have empathy. I abhor what this mother did. I can barely read about it, it breaks my heart. But that doesn't mean I can't feel empathy for her- if she did this in part because of PND or a personality disorder, but is "well" enough to be held responsible, then I imagine she must live with this every day for the rest of her life. It may be that she deserves that. That makes it no less horrible in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Oh right - so people who have a different view from a certain straight shooter have mental health issues, are lonely, bored and lazy - That must be it right?
    Good job being dramatic and getting my intent screwed up in the meantime.

    I never meant anyone apart from me met a certain criteria. I meant most people on BH (NOT excluding myself ) are likely lonely, bored, have a bit of free time on their hands, have problems, and/or predisposed to mental issues etc. I don't think people who have full and satisfied lives would spend all day speaking to strangers on an Internet forum. People with problems in their lives (Relationships, kids, illness) are more likely to seek support from online strangers. Looking at the posts on here every day it is clear there is a higher percentage of women with relationship/illness/other problems that in the 'outside world.'
    I'm not saying this is a bad thing and I'm not excluding myself. I was just trying to understand why there is a higher rate of empathy on BH for the mother that killed her kids (than in the real world).

    I hope this clarifies things.

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    Or maybe it's just because it is a forum full of mothers that there tends to be more empathy than there might be in the 'real world' where mothers aren't in the majority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Looking at the posts on here every day it is clear there is a higher percentage of women with relationship/illness/other problems that in the 'outside world.'.
    Isn't everyone on here part of the 'outside world?' With the stigma of mental illness throughout society on the constant need to be perfect in our lives, I don't find it surprising that people turn to an anonymous forum for support, to vent and to ask questions they're to scared to ask in person.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 17-08-2013 at 13:41.

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    Well - as we all know I have suffered mental illness. But as to the rest - I don't agree. I come on this forum, because I know that there are like minded people (politically, socially, everything really) and because I need a bit of light relief. I also find it entertaining and very informative, I know far more about things like vaccines, now since being on here than I did before.

    This is what it boils down to for me. She was obviously suffering from a major mental illness/breakdown whatever. The newspaper article said that neighbours said she looked like a "homeless person" - she stopped bathing, stopped brushing her hair, teeth, dirty clothes etc.

    I find what she did to the babies horrifying - but for me, I am seriously shocked that nobody helped her, that nobody noticed, or they ignored her - where was her mum, her foster mum? Her bleeding alcoholic husband.

    And that husband, he lived in the same house and didn't ever see the twins in months - didn't enquire about them. I would say less mental illness (after all - he still had the capability to go to the pub boozing and gambling) and more selfish. He should be dragged through the coals - he is every bit as much to blame, I find it interesting that everyone is focussing on the mother - he is their parents just as much as she is.

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Good job being dramatic and getting my intent screwed up in the meantime.

    I never meant anyone apart from me met a certain criteria. I meant most people on BH (NOT excluding myself ) are likely lonely, bored, have a bit of free time on their hands, have problems, and/or predisposed to mental issues etc. I don't think people who have full and satisfied lives would spend all day speaking to strangers on an Internet forum. People with problems in their lives (Relationships, kids, illness) are more likely to seek support from online strangers. Looking at the posts on here every day it is clear there is a higher percentage of women with relationship/illness/other problems that in the 'outside world.'
    I'm not saying this is a bad thing and I'm not excluding myself. I was just trying to understand why there is a higher rate of empathy on BH for the mother that killed her kids (than in the real world).

    I hope this clarifies things.

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