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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Crow View Post
    I plan to breastfeed #3 (due Feb).
    I failed with my 1st - physically and emotionally, i just wasnt able to bf, and it turned out she had severe CMPI as well, so we prescription FF her.
    I was unwilling to attempt bf'ing my second bub and went directly to regular formula.

    I am anticipating some physical issues this time. I have one severely inverted nipple. But i am prepared to bf from the left and bottle feed ebm from the right. Failing that, we will ff once again.
    Seeing an LC before bub co,ex might be helpful re the inverted nipple. And good on you for deciding to give it a go after what sounds like a struggle in the past BH is such a great resource if you need to troubleshoot

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Seeing an LC before bub co,ex might be helpful re the inverted nipple. And good on you for deciding to give it a go after what sounds like a struggle in the past BH is such a great resource if you need to troubleshoot
    I tried two different LCs the first time! Couldnt get bub to latch on the right no matter what was tried. So i am fairly content with having to pump that side.

    I have already began gathering some great tips and advice off here in readiness

    This is my last bub, so my last chance to try it

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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowangel0205 View Post
    After the discussion in here, the thread name is quite negatively put.
    I mean no offence to op, its just an observation, I'm sure they didn't mean it, but I am really sensitive, even now, 2yrs after stopping bfing my ds....because I had only believed I would exclusively bf, for all the right reasons, but no amount of perseverance worked, and my ds had to be fed formula. There was not even the option of donor milk where we live, and I cried every time he had to have a bottle, at every feed, every few hours! For months. Its not what I wanted, but my choices were formula or starve my baby. I continued to bf until he refused at 4 months, and pumped round the clock until 6 months to maybe give him one ebm bottle a day...I had to stop due to medication for my own health.
    I just find it upsetting that where there is no other choice but formula, to read that its not considered appropriate....when I'm still battling the guilt that my body just does not produce enough milk....just makes those with no choice feel worse than they probably already do.

    Sent from my GT-S5830T using The Bub Hub mobile app
    I think that is what I was trying to say. I don't think anyone at all has an issue with YOU or anyone in your situation or any other where they need or want to formula feed- it's the formula itself that people take issue with- not because formula is awful, evil stuff, but just because it could be better (this is how I feel and I'm making a gross assumption that others do too from what i've read here) and e companies that make it (not all of them but some) should be more ethically sound. FWIW it sounds like you were very dedicated to giving your little one as much bm as you could and even that one bottle a day would have benefitted him.

  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I think it's important to note that for most people on here, it is indeed the *formula* that is the issue, not the mum or dad using it, for whatever reason. I don't think anyone would say that a mother should breastfeed at all costs. Sometimes medical, physical, psychological factors or just personal choice mean that breast feeding isn't an option. I think the feeling is that the formula we have, while certainly adequate (as evidenced by plenty of healthy ff children) it could be better, and I don't think anyone would object to that. The karicare scare and similar ones in the past here and overseas simply shouldn't happen.
    I know where you are coming from, and I believe the companies should always be striving for a better, safer product. But I think the flaw in the argument that just bc there is a tiny safety risk with formula, that makes formula unsafe is unfounded. There are tiny risks to bm, be it donor milk or feeding your own child. Illness, medications, drug use etc. No one says that bc there is a tiny risk that bm is inherently dangerous.

    And this could be applied to lots of examples. Does the fact there has been deaths in HB's make HB unsafe? Or that a tiny proportion of vaxxed kids have a severe reaction.... does that then make vaccination unsafe?

    The karicare issue in NZ is very concerning. But it's the first one I've seen near our shores. China is a 3rd world country. I'm not saying we ignore any safety issues of formula, but I think we have to be fair here. formula is safe in 99.99% of cases, and really, nothing in life is 100% free of risk...
    Last edited by delirium; 04-08-2013 at 22:34.

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  8. #205
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    I think Bubmum is the victim of some over zealous forum posse doing a virtual stacks on.

    Her point, apart from the 'losing sleep' bit is factual. Kids in developing countries are dying, here is a black market and parents do go to extreme lengths to access formula.

    She was in no way creating a negative view on us lucky, first word women who are damned fortunate to have options should we have a physical, social, lifestyle or other barrier to full time breast feeding . She was merely adding a different perspective which I feel is a rather good thing when having an adult discussion.

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  10. #206
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    I agree, and often also lose sleep over the condition in which some children are living. We live in a world and really should be looking after each other. I love my job, but sometimes sit back and think that while people are paying sometimes a lot of money, myself included, to do fun things, others are starving and unable to provide for their children who are then dying. That's not about formula or breastfeeding, although formula feeding in these conditions is dangerous. I don't know what the answer is there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I think that is what I was trying to say. I don't think anyone at all has an issue with YOU or anyone in your situation or any other where they need or want to formula feed- it's the formula itself that people take issue with- not because formula is awful, evil stuff, but just because it could be better (this is how I feel and I'm making a gross assumption that others do too from what i've read here) and e companies that make it (not all of them but some) should be more ethically sound. FWIW it sounds like you were very dedicated to giving your little one as much bm as you could and even that one bottle a day would have benefitted him.
    Thank you. I do understand its not me that anyone had an issue with, that its the formula... But it still doesn't help the internal guilt hearing that its something that, it seems, alot of people deem a less than desirable choice, when we had no choice iykwim?

    I still fully intend to try again and again with any future children, but realistically I know deep down I again, may need formula got my child....as my only other option would be starvation, and I guess that would be more than frowned upon lol.

    At the end of the day, no matter how a bub is fed, for whatever reason, I think so long as they are happy and thriving, who cares!?

    Yes, some methods are preferred by individuals, or encouraged by society, but I think as mums we get enough judgement on everything else, we should stick together and support eachother....so long as what we are doing is the best we can for our own children, I'm happy to have anyones back. Breastfeeding, ebm, mixed, donor milk or formula!

    Sent from my GT-S5830T using The Bub Hub mobile app

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  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I know where you are coming from, and I believe the companies should always be striving for a better, safer product. But I think the flaw in the argument that just bc there is a tiny safety risk with formula, that makes formula unsafe is unfounded. There are tiny risks to bm, be it donor milk or feeding your own child. Illness, medications, drug use etc. No one says that bc there is a tiny risk that bm is inherently dangerous.

    And this could be applied to lots of examples. Does the fact there has been deaths in HB's make HB unsafe? Or that a tiny proportion of vaxxed kids have a severe reaction.... does that then make vaccination unsafe?

    The karicare issue in NZ is very concerning. But it's the first one I've seen near our shores. China is a 3rd world country. I'm not saying we ignore any safety issues of formula, but I think we have to be fair here. formula is safe in 99.99% of cases, and really, nothing in life is 100% free of risk...
    I think it's more than just the risk of contamination though, it's other ingredients, the fact that companies don't have to be transparent in their labelling and other associated risks with formula (it's hard to find unbiased links but I believe someone posted a study a few posts ago?) brain is to fuzzy to work out what HBs are but regarding the vax example, if someone could make a vax with even less chance of severe reactions, I'd be all for it!

    Interestingly, even the healthiest mum will have stuff in her bm that's surprising. I remember reading about a mum who had hers tested for curiosities sake and found all kinds of stuff including jet fuel! (http://www.npr.org/2012/05/16/152818...able-to-toxins)

    I think the main difference is the live bacteria and antibodies in bm that they've not replicated in formula. Obviously it's impossible to replicate those exactly, but I wonder why they don't seem to be trying to get closer to at least the digestion friendly bacteria? Or something! I don't know. It just seems absurd that with all we have today, the best they can come up with is adding omega 3s? I could be way off, there may be far more research going on that I don't know about. All I'm saying is that I don't honk a one would object to better/safer/healthier formulas. And more natural ones- the popularity of bellamys organic speaks volumes there.and that's not to say current ones are terrible-far from it- all I'm suggesting is improving an already pretty good product iykwim.

    Eta-CDC warning about cronobacter found in formula : http://www.cdc.gov/features/cronobacter/ the main risk of formula contamination seems to be from less than perfect hygiene when preparing. I wonder how prevalent it is- I know I've heard of mums on here using tap water to make up formula.
    Last edited by Atropos; 05-08-2013 at 08:14.

  14. #209
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    Believe me, I do worry about the disrespect to cows, many dairy herds have pretty crap lives actually, I have learned more than I ever wanted to know about it in my last year or so living in rural NZ, surrounded by dairy farming.

    The world over they are totally exploited for the mighty dollar, some living in conditions not much better than battery hens! Fonterra has housed/battery dairy farms in China where animal welfare laws are almost non-existent. Animals who are not given the chance to move and forage as the instinctual migratory animals they are, invariably get circulation issues, gangrene is becoming a problem.

    Not to mention that within 3 days of calving, the calves are taken away, the male calves killed then and there, or shipped to the slaughter houses, or sold on for future beef slaughter. The female calves are mostly kept as replacements in the dairy herd as they got older.

    I imagine PND rates within dairy herds are phenomenal. Not silly either, I've seen cows with PND on my neighbours farm (stud farm, so calves stay with mum ) when calves have died. Cows are highly intelligent, and treated like crap a lot of the time.

    Fonterra is a company I choose to boycott.

    Cows aren't respected overly much, the notable exception being India
    Last edited by MilkingMaid; 05-08-2013 at 09:06.

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  16. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I think it's more than just the risk of contamination though, it's other ingredients, the fact that companies don't have to be transparent in their labelling and other associated risks with formula (it's hard to find unbiased links but I believe someone posted a study a few posts ago?) brain is to fuzzy to work out what HBs are but regarding the vax example, if someone could make a vax with even less chance of severe reactions, I'd be all for it!
    Sure, as I said I'm all for the companies being transparent and producing the best and safest formula they can. What is actually in the formula that they are hiding? (genuine question btw)

    But I guess my point still stands, the same could be said for donor milk, which goes back to the topic. If it's your sister or best mate that is donating then you know their lifestyle, diet, habits etc. But if you are sourcing donor milk from strangers, then you really don't know what you are getting. She may drink heavily, have a serious illness, be on heavy meds. Some women believe in bfing at all costs, and would consider milk tainted heavily with alcohol (so not just a glass which I think is fine) better than formula and may well not even bother to mention it, or even deny it.

    My point is that donor milk is not without safety risks either. But no one assumes that bc 1% of donor milk is no good that means breast milk is no good altogether.

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