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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arli View Post
    Yep great idea, pass over to our under resourced and under caring government child protection workers more to do and take resources away from those kids in abusive homes.
    I wasn't going to post in this thread bc I knew it would be contentious. but I just had to comment on the above. CP is chronically under resourced, you have that right. But under caring? nope that's simply not true. These people do 4 years at uni, then get paid 40-50k depending on rank to be abused, assaulted and ripped apart by both clients and the public. Removing children at 4am then rolling into work at 8. Then there's the effect of seeing years of child abuse and the feelings of having the world on your shoulders.

    Sorry for the rant, but there's a reason the retention rates for DoCS/DHS is so appalling. CP workers are among the most selfless, decent people I know and they most certainly care....

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickpea View Post
    But why is it taking government power too far to legislate against being able to smack a child, when they have already legislated against being able to smack an intellectually impaired adult?

    I genuinely don't see the difference?

    Why are people defending the right to hit defenseless children? If this means we live in a Nanny state I am all for it.

    I really think we need to move away from this notion that children are our property to do with as we please, they deserve the same protections that we ourselves as grown ups are afforded.
    Not agreeing that smacking should be legislated is not the same as saying one thinks smacking is awesome. It's a very complex issue and sorry but I think your viewpoint is rather naive and black-and-white for such a complex issue. There's all sorts of things to consider. Ie. have you thought about the effect it would have on children for example? The guilt children would feel knowing *they are responsible* for their parent being charged and shamed (trust me children have a way of blaming themselves for adult problems) etc etc.

    I personally have not heard about this apparent smacking epidemic we are experiencing, and have heard of no other possible ways to approach this issue thus far. I think there could be better ways of addressing it perhaps, rather than being so alarmist and quite frankly patronising to parents who are otherwise doing a great job raising children.

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  5. #103
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    I'll go back to my self imposed BH ban now but will say one last time why is it parents here think our government is so much more interested in interfering than in the 33 other countries where smacking is illegal? The slippery slope didn't happen in these other countries. Why here? I just don't accept that as an argument. Not a good enough one anyway to not even try and reeducate people that there is another way.

    I'm amazed at the number of posters who think smacking is ok or necessary. I don't get it.

    ETA there will be education campaigns run about this apparently, in the same way when DD1 was little there were many about the effects of verbally abusng children.
    Last edited by Sonja; 27-07-2013 at 14:30.

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arli View Post
    Yep great idea, pass over to our under resourced and under caring government child protection workers more to do and take resources away from those kids in abusive homes. Such a logical concept because there is no other way to monitor and enforce. Yay for putting more kids into unsupported foster homes, because this will be the outcome people, if you really think it through. Our system cannot cope with the kids in need now, how an earth will it cope with kids that get a smack on the bum??? If your all for it being illegal how the hell will it be enforced?
    Wow, unwarranted aggression much? Where in my post did I say that we should pass over to our under resourced and under caring government child protection workers?

    Where did I suggest putting kids in foster homes? Where did I suggest that our current system could cope in it's current form? Where?

    I am so confused by your aggression and anger towards me, I don't know where to start. I would like to point out that I did say that I had a few concerns regarding making it illegal, concetns that would have to be dealt with first.

    Perhaps you could try a different tactic. Jumping down my throat with agression certainly does not make me want to change my mind.

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  9. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickpea View Post
    But why is it taking government power too far to legislate against being able to smack a child, when they have already legislated against being able to smack an intellectually impaired adult?

    I genuinely don't see the difference?

    Why are people defending the right to hit defenseless children? If this means we live in a Nanny state I am all for it.

    I really think we need to move away from this notion that children are our property to do with as we please, they deserve the same protections that we ourselves as grown ups are afforded.
    So, would you support making it illegal to pierce a child's ears?

    And mandatory vaccinations?

    And would you really be all for a nanny state, and all that would entail?

  10. #106
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    I don't smack my kids. I used to , it's not the parent I wanted to be, I changed my ways and learnt to control my own frustration and anger at their naughtiness, there are plenty of other ways for me to discipline my kids that work better than smacking.
    In saying that, no it should not be illegal.
    I was smacked as a child and it worked well for me. I was a good respectful child.



    Me -30, DH -30, DS -7, DS -5, DS -2 and UTD with #4 Due Jan 2014

  11. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickpea View Post
    Yes I think there should be a minimum age for piercing as there is for tattooing

    I don't see vaccination as the same thing as legislating against smacking so I guess I am finding it hard to draw a parallel between the two?

    I don't personally believe that legislating against smacking means this is a nanny state, I was responding to what others were saying.

    I guess I am finding it really difficult to get my head around why people are so keen to be allowed to hit their kids? And no one who is defending it has been able to say what the difference between hitting a child is as opposed to hitting an adult without capacity.
    So, 18 for ear piercing?

    And should shouting at your children be illegal?

    Not vaccinating puts your child at risk of contracting disease and dying (as per my earlier mention, regarding more than 50% of children who died in QLD from disease in 2004-2012 being unvaccinated). It could be argued that there are more tangibly negative effects from not vaccinating than there are from smacking.

    You mentioned you would 'welcome' a nanny state if that meant children weren't being smacked. I wondered if you really meant that, as (to me) that's a pretty big call.

    I'll mention again that I don't smack, nor do I think it's a useful or 'good' way to treat your kids. But I don't think that it's abusive or harmful either - any more than shouting at your kids isn't the same as emotionally abusing them.

    I've mentioned a few times that assault is illegal. So we are talking about a gentle tap/ swat that does not damage (and in many cases does not hurt). If I smacked DH in play then he would not be able to press charges against me.

    I don't view an adult without capacity as the same as a child, so I find that hard to answer. I actually dislike the comparison, tbh, as - having worked in adult learning disabilities - I came across a lot of adults who were treated as children/ compared with children, and it wasn't appropriate. I do get that you were illustrating an example though. I would find it inappropriate to put an adult with a learning disability in time out, and to look at punishing them 'generally' - so I find the comparison hard to get my head around. I would think that swatting their hand away from something would be fine, but I know that's not what you're getting at.

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  13. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by chickpea View Post
    I guess that is the difference, I don't see it as a complex issue, what is complex about we as a society saying we don't condone the physical hitting of children? It could not be more simple in my eyes.

    We need to think of the children and the guilt they may feel if their parents are charged? Um how about don't hit them then there will be no need to be charged? It does not even make sense..`think of the children! we must continue to allow them to be smacked so they feel no guilt if their parents get charged for breaking the law!'

    I think believing that police will be rushing around charging people is alarmist
    firstly, you need to allow other people to have different opinions to you - attacking someone for having a different opinion will honestly get you nowhere on this (or any) forum.

    Just because you think it's simple and uncomplicated doesnt mean it is. I happen to think its a complicated issue, and I have lived with abuse. Have you?

    If my mother had have been charged for smacking us on the bum those few times I can tell you with certainty it would not have improved out living situation and absolutely yes we would have felt guilty since we kids were being naughty brats at the time we got the smack. I carried around a lot of guilt over the DM we lived with for all those years abd it wasnt even my fault! So I don't see how Mum getting charged for smacking us on the bum when we actually were naughty would have been any different.

    I can't write much now as I'm busy but a few questions: how do you propose to monitor the smacking? Do you set up cameras in people's homes? Because only parents who get caught will get charged obviously... Or is it only public smacking? Do we interview kids at school weekly and ask them if they've been smacked? What kind if smacking matters? Smack on hand? Bum? What intensity? Etc etc

    Also, did you read the part where I said not agreeing that smacking should be legislated is not the same as saying one agrees with smacking? Most parents do not *like* smacking?

  14. #109
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    I just wanted to clarify something. If smacking were to become illegal it wouldn't be a matter of creating a new offence and it would be no more complicated or difficult to enforce than the current assault laws which apply to protect everyone else in our community.

    What it would mean is removing a current defence available to those that assault children. In Qld this is called the defence of domestic discipline and it is available as a defence to parents, guardians and teachers allowing them to use reasonable force to "correct" or "discipline" children. An assault will only become an offence when it is unlawful. Generally speaking this means the application of force or the threatened application of force without consent. Other defences such as provocation and self defence/defence of another would still be available.

    I consider that as a society we are moving away from the idea that children are chattels and toward the notion that they are entitled to the same protection against unlawful assault as everyone else in the community.

    Perhaps the question shouldn't be framed as whether smacking should be illegal but why parents, guardians and teachers should be entitled to special protection under the law for actions that would otherwise be an unlawful assault.

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  16. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    But, and I know I am playing devil's advocate here, what about shouting? Could that not psychologically scar children too? Does it not constitute emotional abuse?

    I was smacked as a child. Not very often, and not very hard. I consider myself to be a confident, non anxious, successful adult, and I have a great relationship with my parents. Would it have been different if they'd never smacked me? Who knows? Would it have been different if they'd shouted at me/ not shouted at me/ raised me as a vegetarian? Who knows?

    Should we legislate against shouting?

    We know that children are more likely to survive if they are vaccinated. Should we legislate to make that mandatory?
    Yeah, I agree with this, I was smacked by my dad. And I consider him the best dad in the world. I don't feel abused or hurt or traumatised.


 

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