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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I think you know very well that not one person on this thread is "happy" that people are drowning in rickety boats.

    I just find it strange that to stop the boats we are punishing the refugees, should we not be punishing the people smugglers, after all, they are the ones breaking the law.
    Why didn't you suggest that as an idea then? Don't we have a bounty on them at the moment?
    Would you punish a 15 year old Indonesian boy who was driving the boat?

    If you are not 'happy' with with people drowning, then you should not be 'happy' with the current situation. If you are not 'happy' with the current situation, then you should be 'happy' that the government is trying to change it.

    So your policy is:
    - 'Manage the problem'
    - 'Punish the people smugglers'
    - 'Taking care of other countries'

    Which of these aren't we doing at the moment?

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  3. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    So I stopped reading the thread a while ago, apologies for that if this has been mentioned in the "resolution" conversation.

    If refugees go to Malaysia or Indonesia by air (and I don't claim to know either way. They might or they might swim or they might grow little wings on their boots and flutter there), doesn't Australia have like "Australian ground" or something, where our headquarters are? Would it be acceptable to build a barracks type thing, and when they get to Indonesia they can go to the headquarters, claim asylum and sleep in said barracks and then Australia flies them here?

    It would be safer, it'd probably end up quite cramped, but it'd be safer. It'd stop boats and people smugglers, and isn't that what people want?
    Turning the Embassy into a refugee camp?

  4. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Thanks for that link. It highlights my point well. When they choose a destination to FLY to with their pockets full of money, they have options. 26 to be exact. They might not all be paradise for them, but they should be able to find safety their and then claim asylum.
    Those that have fled on foot to neighboring countries with just their clothes on their back have no options. Bring them here.
    Yes I'm sure ST Kitts is very easy to access from Afghanistan.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on this part.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 25-07-2013 at 14:30.

  5. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Turning the Embassy into a refugee camp?


    Why not? You asked people to give suggestions on how to fix it. It would only be a temporary refugee camp. As far as I'm aware, when they get here or anywhere else they're still sent to detention centers to be processed. All that would happen is they get here safer. Australia still has to pay for them to be transported and housed in PNG, so why not just do the opposite and house them temporarily (A week or two, or whatever. Depending on how many people are seeking asylum) at the embassy and then fly them here?

    If it IS the people smugglers you want stopped, and the boats stopped due to the 1100 people who have died trying to reach Australia by boat, then this would be effective. If they're being smuggled from Indonesia and Malaysia, take away the peoples smuggling ports, and then what? The people who fly to Indonesia know that they'll be able to transport safely. Maybe they won't have to give up all their money to get one person here via people smuggler, but their whole family here via plane so families would stop being separated. Or they'd have money to start a life in Australia, so people won't have to worry about the "drain on the tax payers" that they are.

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  7. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    So I stopped reading the thread a while ago, apologies for that if this has been mentioned in the "resolution" conversation.

    If refugees go to Malaysia or Indonesia by air (and I don't claim to know either way. They might or they might swim or they might grow little wings on their boots and flutter there), doesn't Australia have like "Australian ground" or something, where our headquarters are? Would it be acceptable to build a barracks type thing, and when they get to Indonesia they can go to the headquarters, claim asylum and sleep in said barracks and then Australia flies them here?

    It would be safer, it'd probably end up quite cramped, but it'd be safer. It'd stop boats and people smugglers, and isn't that what people want?
    I get what you are thinking here. However, the Australian embassy needs to be kept for diplomatic and citizen use.

    The best option here would be for Indonesia to sign the Convention, have legal frameworks for refugees and for UNHCR to be better equipped to register asylum seekers. If the process was better, there would be better outcomes and less incentive to get on a boat.

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  9. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    2. They are spending their money in the country.
    True, but many also send a lot of money home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Managing the problem?
    Are you at all concerned about the 1100 or so people who have died? Are you happy for that sort of death rate to continue?
    Your suggestion of just managing the problem will not prevent any deaths, and with the rate of increase in numbers, I would expect the death toll to also rise at an increasing rate.

    I'm glad the politicians (at least the non-Green ones) at least are trying to solve this problem. Sitting back and just accepting the deaths I find abhorrent.
    That's fine. I find your notion of "solving" the problem simplistic and not possible in this global climate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Why do I ignore it? They are mutually exclusive.
    1. They do not cost the government a cent.
    2. They are spending their money in the country.
    3. They are not taking refugee places from other less fortunate people.
    4. They are not dying on the journey here.
    5. They arrive with documentation.
    'Problems created by illegal workers
    Illegal workers create a number of problems within the Australian community.
    They:

    reduce employment opportunities for those with permission to work in Australia

    place an additional burden on the taxpayer in terms of costs associated with locating and removing illegal workers, uncollected taxes and fraudulently claimed government benefits

    disadvantage employers who employ legal workers because they may not be able to compete with those who employ and under-pay illegal workers

    may be subject to exploitation and organised criminal activity

    may not meet the stringent health and character tests undertaken by holders of a visa with work entitlements.'

    http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/87illegal.htm

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  14. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    And Father and VP, I completely agree that Australia should up their intake, I also don't believe the number of authorized and unauthorized arrivals should be linked, my understanding is that other signatories do not do this. I would love to stop the boats, but I just don't think it is such a black and white issue as to why people take the route they take. One of the speakers on q & a the other night spoke of going straight to the source to slow the boats. Humanitarian efforts in these countries and officials explaining the law. He spoke of Australia doing this in Sri Lanka a few years ago and the boats stopping/slowing from there.
    I sort of agree with you, or at least understand where you are coming from. I can see why you don't want the onshore and offshore numbers linked. However I can see why the government does have an overall total each category draws from. If you don't have a cap then chances are the government wouldn't have budgeted to support all the applicants. And if we don't have a cap then we would probably end up in budgetary distress which would send the country up the crapper.m

    And I agree with improving humanitarian aid at the source of the problem. However I don't think it's always that easy. We can't just go barging into a country with our wallets and a big stick. Some countries are more accepting of our 'aid' and 'direction' (PNG). If we tried to step in on others turf (eg Syria) it would probably lead to armed conflict... Which would mean the death of Aussie soldiers and more refugees. Some countries no matter what we do its going to be a ****fight for a long time yet (Afghanistan).

    Perhaps the difficulty and long term nature of implementing a workable solution at the source, together with the tragedy of people dying on boats, is why all the pollies are going for the hard core local short term solutions....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Gram View Post
    This would need both Indonesia and Malaysia to sign onto the Convention and change their laws to recognise refugees and give them rights such as education and to be able to work.
    Not necessarily. There are some charity funded schools in MAlaysia for refugee kids. Pretty shoddy ones though. I'm assuming Australian $$ could help upgrade them. Adults don't need to work if they are in detention awaiting processing. As long as they receive sufficient aid.


 

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