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  1. #531
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    I think there are some good ideas floating around. I do agree that this is something that no one country can tackle alone. This needs to be a combined effort by all the countries in the world.

    And if we started taking care of other countries - ie, making sure there are no major famines, that people are healthy all over the world, there would be less chance of major civil wars etc. So therefore less genuine refugees.

    But to do that, capitalism would probably come to an end, and then everyone would probably have to actually save up for a flat screen tv.

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  3. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    There was nothing ad hom in there at all.

    So what would you actually do? Talk? How long have we been taking refugees for? Do you think that we don't know already?

    ETA: It sounds like a normal Kevin Rudd policy. "I promise that I will get people together and we will discuss why people are getting on boats". What do you aim to achieve by that? What results would you see, and how long would it take?
    I found your suggestion that I go over and decide who they select from camps because you suggested I thought that others could not make the decision, to be a a personal sledge, my mistake if it wasn't.

    Honestly, I don't know what to do, the issue is bigger than what I know about it and I think it would be arrogant of me to think I had the solution to something that globally is still unable to be solved. I do know that there are currently over 10.4 million refugees and a putting them in a queue at the current time the wait would be 192 years so fixing up those problems will take non unilateral agreements which Ana Gram has already suggested.

    I don't know if it can be solved especially in my life time. How we deal with it in terms of managing the problem is what I'm interested in at this stage, which includes meeting our current legal obligations not shipping them off to another country to deal with.

    I think the person who probably has the broadest and most in depth analytical understanding of the issue on both political, economic and humanitarian landscapes is Ana Gram and suggestions from people that academic knowledge on this isn't valuable is gobsmacking. I've never professed to have solutions only to try to understand the problem better.
    Last edited by babyla; 25-07-2013 at 12:41.

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  5. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    You have said that many times. I understand why they would rather come to Australia than stay in Indonesia. There is no question about that.
    But. The question is then, when they made the decision to FLY to Indonesia, did they do so with the prior intent to jump on a boat to Australia? Why did they choose the option that costs an extra $10,000 a head (the boat journey) rather than using that money to set themselves up in any other country that was on offer at the airport? The point is - they are buying their way here with money that others (the less fortunate) simply don't have.
    If they didn't want to stay in Indonesia, then they shouldn't have flown there in the first place. The world is a big place with hundreds of countries. Australia is not the only option to them.
    The answers to some of these questions are more likely to be better answered on Tuesday night. You seem to have an interest in Michael Smiths views so hardly a biased or cherry picked group of people.

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  7. #534
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    I have a genuine question for those who think a person can do anything to get their family out of extreme poverty or life threatening circumstances but you're against visa overstay. Why is that? The people that come here by plane and overstay their visa maybe just in the same situation. Instead of using money to pay a people smuggler, they apply for student/work/tourist visa with the aim to stay in Australia. Some of them come from the same country with people that come by boat so i assume they may face the same problems which force them to leave in the first place.

    I am also wondering what everyone consider genuine reasons for seeking asylum? I have known people from my home country come to Australia/US by boat because they want a better life, better education & health care for their children, because they don't like our government. I do think those are genuine reason to leave a country for another, I did the same thing by coming to Australia for a better future through student visa then work visa. However I'm not sure if it's enough to risk their life on the sea. To make it clear, there's hardly life threatening circumstances in my country (until they board the boat). I have met people from South Africa, Ethiopia where someone tried to kill their family, people die of starving.. and for those situations I'd do anything to take myself and my family out, don't care where, just out of the situation.

    To a previous poster asking about cost of living, we can live on $3/day in rural area and up to $10/day in a city for a family. But my country have only around 200-700 asylum seekers / year to Australia so i can't speak for other countries. Last I heard, a people smuggler in my home country charges around $6,000 - $13,000 for a case.

    I think something must be done to stop the greedy people smuggling, something must be done to speed up the process for asylum seekers and to improve living condition in detention camps, but I think Papua New Guinea is a horrible idea.

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  9. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    I don't know if it can be solved especially in my life time. How we deal with it in terms of managing the problem is what I'm interested in at this stage, which includes meeting our current legal obligations not shipping them off to another country to deal with.
    Managing the problem?
    Are you at all concerned about the 1100 or so people who have died? Are you happy for that sort of death rate to continue?
    Your suggestion of just managing the problem will not prevent any deaths, and with the rate of increase in numbers, I would expect the death toll to also rise at an increasing rate.

    I'm glad the politicians (at least the non-Green ones) at least are trying to solve this problem. Sitting back and just accepting the deaths I find abhorrent.

  10. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    'According to the "Henley Visa Restrictions Index 2012", holders of an Afghan passport can visit only 26 countries visa-free or with visa on arrival. This is the lowest number of all passports worldwide as of 2012.[5]'
    Thanks for that link. It highlights my point well. When they choose a destination to FLY to with their pockets full of money, they have options. 26 to be exact. They might not all be paradise for them, but they should be able to find safety their and then claim asylum.
    Those that have fled on foot to neighboring countries with just their clothes on their back have no options. Bring them here.

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  12. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovesushi View Post
    I have a genuine question for those who think a person can do anything to get their family out of extreme poverty or life threatening circumstances but you're against visa overstay. Why is that? The people that come here by plane and overstay their visa maybe just in the same situation. Instead of using money to pay a people smuggler, they apply for student/work/tourist visa with the aim to stay in Australia.
    I don't have a problem with it per se, I just find it interesting that those against boat arrivals never ever mention visa overstayers. I find it interesting that they can just ignore such a large group of people who are effectively doing what they claim to hate.

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  14. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Managing the problem?
    Are you at all concerned about the 1100 or so people who have died? Are you happy for that sort of death rate to continue?
    Your suggestion of just managing the problem will not prevent any deaths, and with the rate of increase in numbers, I would expect the death toll to also rise at an increasing rate.

    I'm glad the politicians (at least the non-Green ones) at least are trying to solve this problem. Sitting back and just accepting the deaths I find abhorrent.
    I think you know very well that not one person on this thread is "happy" that people are drowning in rickety boats.

    I just find it strange that to stop the boats we are punishing the refugees, should we not be punishing the people smugglers, after all, they are the ones breaking the law.

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  16. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I don't have a problem with it per se, I just find it interesting that those against boat arrivals never ever mention visa overstayers. I find it interesting that they can just ignore such a large group of people who are effectively doing what they claim to hate.
    Why do I ignore it? They are mutually exclusive.
    1. They do not cost the government a cent.
    2. They are spending their money in the country.
    3. They are not taking refugee places from other less fortunate people.
    4. They are not dying on the journey here.
    5. They arrive with documentation.

    What do you claim I hate?

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    So I stopped reading the thread a while ago, apologies for that if this has been mentioned in the "resolution" conversation.

    If refugees go to Malaysia or Indonesia by air (and I don't claim to know either way. They might or they might swim or they might grow little wings on their boots and flutter there), doesn't Australia have like "Australian ground" or something, where our headquarters are? Would it be acceptable to build a barracks type thing, and when they get to Indonesia they can go to the headquarters, claim asylum and sleep in said barracks and then Australia flies them here?

    It would be safer, it'd probably end up quite cramped, but it'd be safer. It'd stop boats and people smugglers, and isn't that what people want?


 

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