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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    I find the term "most deserving" really difficult to make a judgement call on, your perception is different to mine, people do desperate things through desperation which without understanding that will make going into "solving mode" pointless.

    We need to understand the stories behind the choices people make especially if it's these very people we are wanting to help.
    Completely agree.

  2. #522
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    There was a family in Indonesia from Afghanistan in series two of go back to where you came from. They had been there for years, in hiding, from memory and scared. After years and years of no progress with UNHCR, they had decided to get on a boat and try their luck.

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  4. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    There was a family in Indonesia from Afghanistan in series two of go back to where you came from. They had been there for years, in hiding, from memory and scared. After years and years of no progress with UNHCR, they had decided to get on a boat and try their luck.
    Putting a reminder in my phone right now!

  5. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Ok here's my solution.

    I think I prefer Gillards Malaysia solution. Except with a few changes:

    - expand the plan to include Indonesia (yeah easier said than done I know)
    - all boat arrivals are sent back to camps in the country they came from (Indonesia/Malaysia)
    - ensure education for children was part of the deal.
    - We will increase the yearly quota of asylum seekers taken in... direct from UNHCR registration. Not on the register? No entry.
    - Arriving in Australia doesn't guarantee you will be resettled here. You go on the UNHCR list and where you end up depends on the UN.
    This would need both Indonesia and Malaysia to sign onto the Convention and change their laws to recognise refugees and give them rights such as education and to be able to work.

    Since Rudd has already broken the first rule of diplomacy with Indonesia, being don't p*ss them off, trying to get them to do anything while he is at the helm will be near impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    Father you're getting all ad hom again.

    My suggestion start with finding out why people get on boats. Why are you so opposed to that part of the issue?
    There was nothing ad hom in there at all.

    So what would you actually do? Talk? How long have we been taking refugees for? Do you think that we don't know already?

    ETA: It sounds like a normal Kevin Rudd policy. "I promise that I will get people together and we will discuss why people are getting on boats". What do you aim to achieve by that? What results would you see, and how long would it take?
    Last edited by Father; 25-07-2013 at 10:14.

  7. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I do find it very curious that you don't understand why they wouldn't stay in Indonesia or Malaysia? Would you stay in a country where you had no rights and your child couldn't go to school or access healthcare? Where you could be deported back to the country you fled or arrested for being an illegal immigrant? I am not being snarky, I am genuinely asking.
    You have said that many times. I understand why they would rather come to Australia than stay in Indonesia. There is no question about that.
    But. The question is then, when they made the decision to FLY to Indonesia, did they do so with the prior intent to jump on a boat to Australia? Why did they choose the option that costs an extra $10,000 a head (the boat journey) rather than using that money to set themselves up in any other country that was on offer at the airport? The point is - they are buying their way here with money that others (the less fortunate) simply don't have.
    If they didn't want to stay in Indonesia, then they shouldn't have flown there in the first place. The world is a big place with hundreds of countries. Australia is not the only option to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Ok here's my solution.

    I think I prefer Gillards Malaysia solution. Except with a few changes:

    - expand the plan to include Indonesia (yeah easier said than done I know)
    - all boat arrivals are sent back to camps in the country they came from (Indonesia/Malaysia)
    - ensure education for children was part of the deal.
    - We will increase the yearly quota of asylum seekers taken in... direct from UNHCR registration. Not on the register? No entry.
    - Arriving in Australia doesn't guarantee you will be resettled here. You go on the UNHCR list and where you end up depends on the UN.
    Sounds very similar to mine. I guess I could compromise and throw some education in.

    Well. VP and I have thrown our 2 cents in the water. Apparently we are the ignorant ones. I would love to hear a suggestion from those enlightened ones that have watched 'Go back to where you came from', or those that have studied this for over 3 years.

  10. #528
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    Ok, both VP and Father have suggested that we should increase the total number of refugees that we take in. I didn't realise that this was how you both felt on the matter. Well, I wholeheartedly agree with you both on that.

    ETA. I really think that increasing our quota is probably key to the solution, regardless of the details of how that is done. If we took more people overall, then more people would be taken out of the camps. This would mean the camps were less crowded, there would be less of a wait there and therefore they wouldn't be such a hopeless place to end up. That could then reduce the incentive for people to embark on the dangerous boat journeys. So, make going through the camps a more reasonable proposition for refugees, rather than punishing people for not wanting to end up camps in their current appalling condition.
    Last edited by Meg2; 25-07-2013 at 11:02.

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  12. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    You have said that many times. I understand why they would rather come to Australia than stay in Indonesia. There is no question about that.
    But. The question is then, when they made the decision to FLY to Indonesia, did they do so with the prior intent to jump on a boat to Australia? Why did they choose the option that costs an extra $10,000 a head (the boat journey) rather than using that money to set themselves up in any other country that was on offer at the airport? The point is - they are buying their way here with money that others (the less fortunate) simply don't have.
    If they didn't want to stay in Indonesia, then they shouldn't have flown there in the first place. The world is a big place with hundreds of countries. Australia is not the only option to them.
    Not every passport works like an Australian or an American passport with the ability to enter a majority of countries we please without prior authorization.

    I simply don't feel all their situations are as black and white as you do.

    ETA: I posted a map earlier of the countries an Iranian can enter without prior authorization. Here's a quote regarding Afghanistan, will try and find a map:

    'According to the "Henley Visa Restrictions Index 2012", holders of an Afghan passport can visit only 26 countries visa-free or with visa on arrival. This is the lowest number of all passports worldwide as of 2012.[5]'

    Countries an Afghan can enter without prior authorization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_...fghan_citizens

    Iraq: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_...Iraqi_citizens
    Last edited by Kirst33; 25-07-2013 at 11:21.

  13. #530
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    And Father and VP, I completely agree that Australia should up their intake, I also don't believe the number of authorized and unauthorized arrivals should be linked, my understanding is that other signatories do not do this. I would love to stop the boats, but I just don't think it is such a black and white issue as to why people take the route they take. One of the speakers on q & a the other night spoke of going straight to the source to slow the boats. Humanitarian efforts in these countries and officials explaining the law. He spoke of Australia doing this in Sri Lanka a few years ago and the boats stopping/slowing from there.

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