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  1. #511
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    Interesting question.
    Father's thought bubble:
    With each boat that arrives, the asylum seekers are immediately placed on a plane and taken to a UNHCR camp in varying countries. On the return trip to Australia, the plane takes 2 (or 1.5) people from the same camp for every person they dropped off.
    This would allow us to select those asylum seekers that have been stuck in the camps for years, reduce the numbers in those camps, increase the refugee intake, and provide an immediate deterrence to those who have the money to pay their way to Australia.
    It would cost a bit, but I would imagine the boats would stopping coming after the first couple of aircraft departures.
    Unlike the Malaysian solution, it cannot have a cap or the smugglers can overwhelm the policy.
    If that means we need to withdraw from the refugee convention then so be it. It is outdated anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Interesting question.
    Father's thought bubble:
    With each boat that arrives, the asylum seekers are immediately placed on a plane and taken to a UNHCR camp in varying countries. On the return trip to Australia, the plane takes 2 (or 1.5) people from the same camp for every person they dropped off.
    This would allow us to select those asylum seekers that have been stuck in the camps for years, reduce the numbers in those camps, increase the refugee intake, and provide an immediate deterrence to those who have the money to pay their way to Australia.
    It would cost a bit, but I would imagine the boats would stopping coming after the first couple of aircraft departures.
    Unlike the Malaysian solution, it cannot have a cap or the smugglers can overwhelm the policy.
    If that means we need to withdraw from the refugee convention then so be it. It is outdated anyway.
    Ok, say you have an unaccompanied minor on the boat. Are they going to be dumped in a camp, or can they stay? What about a pregnant woman? A family with small children or babies? How do you judge who is more deserving or more at risk in the camps?

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...asylum-seekers

    This is why the government wants to stop the boats in the quickest possible manner. Tragic.

    You're probably not going to believe me but I was just watching the today show and apparently the survivors mentioned they people smugglers said the Australian media was lying about the PNG solution. An Iranian woman was interviewed and in response she said "Any place is better than Iran."

    I can't help but judge parents who put their small kids on an unsafe boat: surely they know the risks? Is Indonesian/Malaysia really that bad to put your child on a rickety boat? (I dont think so, but I know people disagree). Do parents just not realise how bad the boat is? Or do they know and are willing to take the gamble?
    Pretty sure absolutely everyone in this thread agrees that it is absolutely tragic.

    People smugglers are always going to lie in order to keep their business going. They don't care how many people die as long as they get paid.

    Having no food, no work, and no education is absolutely enough for some people to risk it. I know you say you wouldn't, but I know I absolutely would. Desperate people will take desperate risks.

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Rudd was just on the today show and be challenged anyone who disagreed with the PNG solution to come up with an alternative credible plan for stopping the boats. I'm not a Rudd fan but its a good question.
    - for me credible means it won't sent the country broke and it will likely work within a reasonable timeframe (6 months?) instead of taking years.

    I don't have an alternative solution yet, I will put my thinking cap on.
    I have already raised a prospect. This cannot be unilateral. With all countries basically working by themselves it only produces outcomes that are not working well. As it is a global problem, with over 10 million refugees globally, this needs a multilateral plan. No one country is going to solve this issue, no matter how many egomaniac pollies come up with plans they are sure will work.

    The UNHCR is heavily under-resourced and simply cannot cope with the number of refugees. Countries need to be working with them to create better camps, more access to camps and to speed up the processing of refugees.

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  5. #514
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    If we're putting parameters on solutions then it needs to meet our obligations under the Refugee Convention which Australia had a part in writing.

    I also think problem solving means looking at issues from lots of different angles even those we think might be biased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Ok, say you have an unaccompanied minor on the boat. Are they going to be dumped in a camp, or can they stay? What about a pregnant woman? A family with small children or babies? How do you judge who is more deserving or more at risk in the camps?
    No exceptions. Smugglers aren't stupid. They will just load the boats with pregnant women and children. Then, when the next boat goes down like the one yesterday, all the deaths will be pregnant women and children. Not an outcome that I think you would like to witness.

    Who is most deserving? Those that have been there the longest, provided it is not due to being rejected. They need the help most.
    And I guess, if you feel that women and children are more valuable (which I would agree), then they can be prioritised from the camps.
    How does that sound? Hand over 50 men, and get 100 women and children.
    Last edited by Father; 25-07-2013 at 07:58.

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    I find the term "most deserving" really difficult to make a judgement call on, your perception is different to mine, people do desperate things through desperation which without understanding that will make going into "solving mode" pointless.

    We need to understand the stories behind the choices people make especially if it's these very people we are wanting to help.
    Last edited by babyla; 25-07-2013 at 08:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    I find the term "most deserving" really difficult to make a judgement call on, your perception is different to mine, people do desperate things through desperation which without understanding that will make going into "solving mode" pointless.
    I'm not really phased on how they select refugees from the camps. We could send you over to make the decision if you feel others are incapable of using their judgement.
    The key is stopping people drowning at sea and helping those who cannot help themselves.
    Do you have an idea yourself? Or is it just leave the door open and let the people die?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    I'm not really phased on how they select refugees from the camps. We could send you over to make the decision if you feel others are incapable of using their judgement.
    The key is stopping people drowning at sea and helping those who cannot help themselves.
    Do you have an idea yourself? Or is it just leave the door open and let the people die?
    Father you're getting all ad hom again.

    My suggestion start with finding out why people get on boats. Why are you so opposed to that part of the issue?

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    Ok here's my solution.

    I think I prefer Gillards Malaysia solution. Except with a few changes:

    - expand the plan to include Indonesia (yeah easier said than done I know)
    - all boat arrivals are sent back to camps in the country they came from (Indonesia/Malaysia)
    - ensure education for children was part of the deal.
    - We will increase the yearly quota of asylum seekers taken in... direct from UNHCR registration. Not on the register? No entry.
    - Arriving in Australia doesn't guarantee you will be resettled here. You go on the UNHCR list and where you end up depends on the UN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...asylum-seekers

    This is why the government wants to stop the boats in the quickest possible manner. Tragic.

    You're probably not going to believe me but I was just watching the today show and apparently the survivors mentioned they people smugglers said the Australian media was lying about the PNG solution. An Iranian woman was interviewed and in response she said "Any place is better than Iran."

    I can't help but judge parents who put their small kids on an unsafe boat: surely they know the risks? Is Indonesian/Malaysia really that bad to put your child on a rickety boat? (I dont think so, but I know people disagree). Do parents just not realise how bad the boat is? Or do they know and are willing to take the gamble?
    I can see your point, but to me, I see willing to get on a boat a sign of how desperate they are.

    I'm sorry, but I do find it very curious that you don't understand why they wouldn't stay in Indonesia or Malaysia? Would you stay in a country where you had no rights and your child couldn't go to school or access healthcare? Where you could be deported back to the country you fled or arrested for being an illegal immigrant? I am not being snarky, I am genuinely asking.

    And the interview proved my point, the people smugglers will lie. The message will get across to some, but not all.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 25-07-2013 at 08:40.

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