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  1. #331
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    Very few Iranians travelling to Indonesia would be doing do in order to transit to Australia. Many Iranian nationals would have business reasons to visit Indonesia, legitimate or otherwise. They are also not preventing Iranians front coming merely changing the visa arrangements.

    In any case you are assuming that the occasionally passport carrying Iranian would not be a legitimate asylum seeker, they may well be considering the political climate in Iran.

    Most asylum seekers arriving at the moment are Hazara and Tamil.

    Would an asylum seeker who arrives in Indonesia via plane be a legitimate refugee with cause to board a boat for Australia? Absolutely! It's not I'm illegal to seek asylum nor is it illegal to be 'picky' about the country you seek it from. Assange and Snowden are prime examples of this and now one questions why they didn't turn to the geographically closest signatory state.

    Maybe your hypothetical Iranian guy has family already here and just wants to be with them. Every asylum seeker has a unique set of circumstances.

    Father, as someone who has studied these issues in depth for over 3 years now, I can confidently say that what you don't know about this is a whole lot. Your distorted factoids seem to be just a cover for racism.

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    Kirst33  (23-07-2013)

  3. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    I'm not saying they're not entering Indonesia without already planning to travel to Australia, I'm saying that:

    One: I understand the choice of Indonesia since many countries would have restrictions on them entering.

    And two: I don't think they make the decision to leave their home and make a dangerous journey to a foreign country lightly. This isn't a case of 'oh, I feel like living in Australia and this seems like the easiest way!'
    I agree with all of that. I guess where this gets confusing for me is article 31 and it's 'good cause'. The drafters specifically had this 'country shopping' in mind when they drafted it. The intent was never to give refugees the ability to choose whichever country they so wish.
    I am all for helping refugees, but I would much rather help those unfortunate ones with no money stuck in camps around the world than ones that have the ability and money to board planes and pick and choose their destination. It is unfair to those that are more disadvantaged.
    We should be prioritising the most disadvantaged first.

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  5. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by orlyon View Post
    Father, as someone who has studied these issues in depth for over 3 years now, I can confidently say that what you don't know about this is a whole lot. Your distorted factoids seem to be just a cover for racism.
    Another fine example of 'my opinion is right and yours is wrong'. I do not see how anything I have said can be labelled as racist. Do you have an example?
    Throwing that word out there is just a poor (and standard these days) attempt silencing debate.

    Congratulations on your 3 years of studying this issue! Did you get a certificate or something?

    Off to footy practice.
    Last edited by Father; 23-07-2013 at 16:37.

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  7. #334
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    Such a great example using Assange and Snowden! I do question their choices though, mostly because they supposedly stand for a particular agenda but then choose countries with massive human rights violations to seek asylum. But we won't derail and get into them!

    I've been wondering...

    If Canada broke out in civil war or was ruled by an oppressive and vicious dictator, seeing thousands/millions of Canadians fleeing their country and seeking asylum, would Australia turn their backs on those wishing to seek asylum here? Place them in detention centers for years or relocate them to PNG?

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    giggle berry  (23-07-2013)

  9. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    From article 31 (page 10):

    'Refugees are not required to have come ‘directly’ from their country of origin. The intention, reflected in the practice of some States, appears to be that, for Ar- ticle 31(1) to apply, other countries or territories passed through should also have constituted actual or potential threats to life or freedom, or that onward flight may have been dictated by the refusal of other countries to grant protection or asylum, or by the operation of exclusionary provisions, such as those on safe third country, safe country of origin, or time limits. The criterion of ‘good cause’ for illegal entry is clearly flexible enough to allow the elements of individual cases to be taken into account.'

    http://www.unhcr.org/419c778d4.html
    .
    I'll quote this again. They are allowed to fly to Indonesia and come to Australia, because Indonesia is not a signatory and they would have no rights or protection. That is not country shopping, that is making your way to a safe, signatory country.

  10. #336
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    A few interesting points raised on this page 33.

    Firstly, you can board a plane and fly to some countries without a visa. Often. I certainly can (and have done). At present, an Iranian can fly to Indonesia and obtain a visa on arrival for about $25. (Well they can at least until 20 August 2013 as Indonesia has now stopped this arrangement due to what they claim are ritual abuses by Iranian citizens whom they state declare themselves as tourists to allow them entry). In fact, at the moment, Iranian citizens have a choice of about 40 countries to choose from where they can board a plane visa free.

    I think it's worth noting that Indonesia is not a signatory to the Convention. If it wishes to declare the above entry as being illegal it has a right to do so. None of the rules set out in the Convention that Australia chooses to abide by do not apply in Indonesia. To set out on a vessel with the intention of exiting Indonesian waters without a permit is considered illegal in that country. Non nationals must have a permit to exit (it's a yellow card - rock up at the airport without one and you're not going anywhere). In addition, people smuggling is not an extraditable offence (which is how Captain Emad and his merry band of smugglers - all found to be genuine asylum seekers by Australia btw - managed to elude justice...for now anyway).

    Iranians do have access to passports - both real and false.

    Iran has been expelling Afghans from Iran since 2011 due to economic sanctions. They also target migrant workers and other non nationals too.

    Not having a go at anyone or favouring any one particular point of view (only my own! LOL). Just think that before you go accusing people of being trolls (pet peeve of mine, sorry - such a misused word) it's prudent to check the veracity of their statement rather than automatically dismissing it.

    According to various news reports surfacing today, it would appear that the Solomon Islands are to take part in the new PNG resettlement policy and PNG's opposition party intends to challenge the policy so it may well be nuked before it even gets off the ground.

  11. #337
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    A degree actually.

    You claim not to be ignorant, yet you wilfully distort facts to suit an anti refugee agenda.

    What other reason could there be for broadly painting asylum seekers as dishonest criminals than racism.

    Most illegal aliens in Australia are visa overstayers who arrived via plane but Australia isn't trying to stop them. Australia is only worried about those dodgy Muslims coming by boat.

    Supporting a racist policy is racism.

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  13. #338
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    I know that sitting in our lounge rooms and our coffee shops, our pubs and our playgrounds in our warm clothes with our medicare cards in our wallets, free education for our children and food in our stomachs, it’s easy to have very lofty views about what desperate people should or shouldn’t do; of how things should be.'
    That's gotta be Mia Freedman talking. I can always smell her sanctimony from within a 25 mile radius

  14. #339
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    I think we all understand that nobody can board an international flight without a passport. And that some countries do not require a visa before entry, or it is very easy to gain electronic verification, especially when you hold a particular passport (example: an American or Australian passport). But that's not the case for everyone.

    This is a map of the countries an Iranian does not need a visa for pre-arrival (all the grey, they need pre-approval for) :

    ImageUploadedByThe Bub Hub1374564806.556271.jpg

    ETA: It's also worth noting that just because a country is a signatory of the convention does not mean it is 'safe.' Sudan, Afghanistan and Iran are signatories.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 23-07-2013 at 18:14.

  15. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by orlyon View Post
    Supporting a racist policy is racism.
    So, Rudd, Bourke, and I are all racist?
    Which race are we racist against?


 

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