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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaq View Post
    Let's be honest here.

    If people find sex work shameful, it's because they find no-strings-sex shameful.

    It's because they think sex is something that should only happen between people in a relationship, or at least between two people who have just met and are exploring something that might become a relationship.

    Reducing sex to a transaction is seen as the opposite of a relationship - too clear-eyed and honest, perhaps, when our culture prefers to romanticise these things, to suggest that there are never any motives beyond twue wuv for women to have sex. (Nobody ever bothers to suggest men's motives are so pure. Funny that.)

    Never sex in return for a nice meal or some drinks, or sex for a bed for the night. Never sex for the sake of not being alone, or because it's expected in an ongoing relationship, even if you don't feel like it right then. Never sex because you're a wife and it's part of the house and land package.

    "Nice" women have been selling themselves since the dawn of time. They just monetised it differently and scrabbled for something to give themselves the moral high ground. So other women - who were involved in more straightforward transactions - were called prostitutes or whores, some got to be mistresses, or courtesans, and others wives.

    Men, of course, were terrified of these straightforward transactions, because they were free of the control that they had over their wives. "Hand over the money, do the sex, walk away" gave sex workers a power wives and mistresses never had. So those women had to be reviled.

    And here we are today, liberated from shame about sex and our bodies, and this crap is still being peddled. "Respect" for my body? Really? I find it really offensive that anyone should suggest another woman lacks respect for her self or her body because she chooses to use it to support herself. Some sex workers may not, some will. Being a sex worker doesn't automatically equate to one frame of mind, one background, one fate.

    The shame lies with social structures that perpetuate this rubbish and do their utmost to drive it underground, making it an unsafe, sleazy profession BECAUSE of the shame heaped on these women (and men). People trafficking, drug use, STDs and the like - these are social problems that need to be tackled outside of the framework of "prostitution! egad!" and would be a hell of a lot easier to minimise if sex workers could admit what they do and admit that it's out of free choice, rather than compulsion.

    Same goes for p.or.n, actually. Let's stop jumping up and down about the shame, and how awful and immoral it is, and concentrate on tackling the risk factors and misogyny and criminal acts that infiltrate an industry that is sleazy and underground because so many moral majority types insist on keeping it so.

    *rant for the day over*
    Nicely said!!

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaq View Post
    Let's be honest here.

    If people find sex work shameful, it's because they find no-strings-sex shameful.

    It's because they think sex is something that should only happen between people in a relationship, or at least between two people who have just met and are exploring something that might become a relationship.

    Reducing sex to a transaction is seen as the opposite of a relationship - too clear-eyed and honest, perhaps, when our culture prefers to romanticise these things, to suggest that there are never any motives beyond twue wuv for women to have sex. (Nobody ever bothers to suggest men's motives are so pure. Funny that.)

    Never sex in return for a nice meal or some drinks, or sex for a bed for the night. Never sex for the sake of not being alone, or because it's expected in an ongoing relationship, even if you don't feel like it right then. Never sex because you're a wife and it's part of the house and land package.

    "Nice" women have been selling themselves since the dawn of time. They just monetised it differently and scrabbled for something to give themselves the moral high ground. So other women - who were involved in more straightforward transactions - were called prostitutes or whores, some got to be mistresses, or courtesans, and others wives.

    Men, of course, were terrified of these straightforward transactions, because they were free of the control that they had over their wives. "Hand over the money, do the sex, walk away" gave sex workers a power wives and mistresses never had. So those women had to be reviled.

    And here we are today, liberated from shame about sex and our bodies, and this crap is still being peddled. "Respect" for my body? Really? I find it really offensive that anyone should suggest another woman lacks respect for her self or her body because she chooses to use it to support herself. Some sex workers may not, some will. Being a sex worker doesn't automatically equate to one frame of mind, one background, one fate.

    The shame lies with social structures that perpetuate this rubbish and do their utmost to drive it underground, making it an unsafe, sleazy profession BECAUSE of the shame heaped on these women (and men). People trafficking, drug use, STDs and the like - these are social problems that need to be tackled outside of the framework of "prostitution! egad!" and would be a hell of a lot easier to minimise if sex workers could admit what they do and admit that it's out of free choice, rather than compulsion.

    Same goes for p.or.n, actually. Let's stop jumping up and down about the shame, and how awful and immoral it is, and concentrate on tackling the risk factors and misogyny and criminal acts that infiltrate an industry that is sleazy and underground because so many moral majority types insist on keeping it so.

    *rant for the day over*
    Thank you for this post. As an ex sex worker who is proud of the work I did and is passionate about the rights and plight of sex workers, it makes me happy that there are people who understand. Sex workers want rights, recognition of their work as real work and to live without stigma. Indeed, the shame comes from societies views toward the profession. This is the single most damaging element of the job for many workers.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
    Thank you for this post. As an ex sex worker who is proud of the work I did and is passionate about the rights and plight of sex workers, it makes me happy that there are people who understand. Sex workers want rights, recognition of their work as real work and to live without stigma. Indeed, the shame comes from societies views toward the profession. This is the single most damaging element of the job for many workers.
    I find it infuriating when people refuse to listen to people such as yourself who have first hand knowledge of something. No one is saying there are NO drug habits or vulnerable young people forced into the industry; of course there are, but when people start looking at the facts surely the most basic set of braincells can figure out the stigma is unhelpful, regardless of the situations of individual women. Help those who need help, support those who need support ... honestly, we need an "omg, so OBVIOUS" icon.

    Thanks for your kind words, Meg2, junglemum and sophisto

  5. #94
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    Ok I'm going to go back to one example that has been brought up in this thread. It has been mentioned that some people may become a sex worker to help get themselves through Uni, and a few people have said "they should get a job at a supermarket".

    Where do you guys live? I imagine it can't be in Perth. Perth is now the 10th most expensive city in the world to live in. So lets say a student has maximum contact hours at uni, that really limits the amount of hours you can work (without never sleeping) for minimum wage doing night fill or something. Now imagine they have NO family and no support, they're renting somewhere.... the average rental in Perth is $450/week.... I'm sorry AusStudy no where nears covers even a shared rental, food, travel expenses not to mention uni costs such as books, equipment etc.

    As I've said in this thread and a few others... sex just isn't a big deal to some people. I know it is to a lot of you, and that is absolutely fine! To me it's an acticity to be enjoyed and before I met my husband, I was happy to partake in whats known as "friends with benefits". I don't see it as a big deal, not everyone does. So if someone enjoys it, can make money of it, support themselves why being safe, does it really affect your life in a negative way? Why do you care?

    I know a lot of people see the sex industry as this dirty, disgusting place where everyone is a coked up trash bag, but it's just not the case, as much as you want to believe it. Sure, there are bad parts of it, like ANY industry. But there are a lot of safe brothels, where the girls look after themselves, don't put themselves in unsafe situations, get checked for STDs on a regular basis and at the end of the day, provide company to a lot of people who really need it.

    Someone close to me lost his wife to cancer and he now pays for sex every once in a while. He doesn't want a relationship but he still feels the need to be close to someone. According to a lot of you, he's a horrible person. I say, get off your high horse and take a step back and look at things from all angles. It's not always black and white.

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  7. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    Let's pretend for a moment that we live in a magical fairy world where prostitution was view by society as a respectable profession. In this world the general consensus is that sex workers have specialised skills (similar to a masseuse, say) and are performing a difficult, but highly valued - and therefore highly paid - role. There are no associations with drug use or any criminal element here because it is a legal and respected position. If you are particularly good at your job you can become quite well known, your services will be in high demand and you can command top dollar.

    In this world, would people still have an objection to sex workers, or is it simply because we live in a society that denigrates these people that we find it so shameful? Basically like a self-fulfilling prophesy - society wants it to be shameful therefore people become ashamed of it, not through the act itself, but because of arbitrary social conditioning.
    I think you have hit the nail on the head. This is basically what I have wanted to say but you've said it better than I can. I do think we are conditioned by society to believe it is shameful and there are many who just won't ever nudge an inch on that. It seems impossible to change their minds because they only believe what society has told them to believe - all of the negative, 'dirty' connotations of sex workers. They essentially have no other point of reference or personal experiences that would allow them to think of sex workers in any other way.

  8. #96
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    Why is it considered dirty to have sex for money but it is perfectly fine to have sex with a guy or girl after she buys you dinner on a first date or on a one night stand? Both are consenting adults, both involve the same sexual acts, both are a transaction of sorts.

    I really do not understand why it suddenly becomes dirty when cash is exchanged.

    Sent from my GT-I9100T using The Bub Hub mobile app

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  10. #97
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    I havent read all the responses but i have to say. It depends WHY your doing it. If its your last resort to feed, clothe and house your children then NO. Absolutely not. I would do it in a heard beat if it meant being about to feed my kids. If its to support a drug habit then yes.
    For me there is NOTHING i wouldnt do for my children. If it came down to a choice of my children starving and living on the street of blowing some guy for money, I choose the later without a second thought!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Prostitutes disrespect themselves and their bodies by having sex for money. I know feminism is about choice but I think women choosing to be prostitutes makes it harder for the women who are trying to gain respect via other means. It disempowers women as a whole.... reinforces the idea that they are subservient to men. It makes it just that like bit more acceptable to ogle a woman walking past in the street.
    I know we don't usually agree on much - but I agree with everything you posted in that paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Yes. Its indicative of poor decision making, and a lack of self respect, intelligence and morals. It is not something to be revered.

    .
    Really? I think to say a sex worker lacks intelligence, self-respect and morals is a bit insulting. Some sex workers, sure. Just like some doctors, cleaners, centrelink workers etc etc but to tar all sex workers as deprived of self-respect, morals and intelligence lacks....well......intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Owl View Post
    There are jobs which don't involve opening their legs for several random men each day.

    I would think it is better to have a debt and pay it off slowly rather than paying off the debt but have no self respect and in the process be treated like a piece of meat.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using The Bub Hub mobile app
    Here's some info for you. There are some University degrees that don't allow time for a full time or even a part time job. I'm currently doing a degree that there is no possible way I could work. There is so much prac, a full time uni load- honestly, no boss would be willing to be THAT flexible. Sometimes I leave my bed at 3am and get home 15 hours later.....
    And another thing? How do you KNOW they have no self respect? they might have loads of it- it's you who doesn't respect the sex workers.
    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Can I ask a question of those that think it is all good and ok. Would you think it ok for that person to be a mum? And is it then ok for mum to tell the kids what she does for a living? Or is it supposed should it be a secret? And if you have to keep something like that a secret do you think that in itself probably tells you there is something wrong with the profession?
    Yep- I think it's ok for that sex worker to be a mum. And I probably wouldn't encourage she tell her kids because people are stupid and people are ignorant. And with this lack of education and tolerance comes cruelty. I don't think it tells you that there is something wrong with the profession- I think it tells you there is something wrong with the way the profession is perceived. That's what needs fixing.

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  14. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night Owl View Post
    There are jobs which don't involve opening their legs for several random men each day.

    I would think it is better to have a debt and pay it off slowly rather than paying off the debt but have no self respect and in the process be treated like a piece of meat.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using The Bub Hub mobile app
    How do you know they have no self respect?? It may be true that some don't, but you have to own that it everyone has the same moral code that you do.


 

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