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  1. #871
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    Hi All, quick reply for PreciousHeart on the Dex, it is stronger than Prednisolone but more effective at restricting NK cell activity.

    I started Dex two weeks before our planned IVF cycle and fell pg naturally after countless chemical pregnancies.

    When you get your BFP you will be on Dex until 8-10 weeks then transition to Prednisolone as the placenta takes over from the yolk sack. Dr M is super aware of the cross-over issues of Dex and will get you onto Pred as soon as your body and bub can transition (for me we tried at 8 weeks, but ended up going back to Dex and transitioning at 10 weeks following an intralipid infusion and lots of blood tests).

    I had high NK uterine cells, but the bigger issue I think was the NK cells in my blood ******. Had testing with Dr S in Bondi and I have normal levels, but highly activated. SimpsonDesert is right, the testing is different between Dr S and Dr M, but I would go with Dr M's stronger protocol and trust his success stories. He definitely has the best interests of you and your bubs at heart.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LiteFantastic For This Useful Post:

    PreciousHeart  (02-11-2013),SimpsonDesert  (02-11-2013)

  3. #872
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    Litefantastic - thanks for this summary, that's pretty much what my understanding of it was too. I'm on 3 x dex per day, wired to the hilt, waking up at 3.30am and getting up etc - so obviously strong stuff, I didn't have any of this on 3 presidone per day. He said he would take me off it at 9 weeks too, and I just assumed we will wean over to something else if required. But really good to hear the same understanding/treatment from others xx
    Quote Originally Posted by LiteFantastic View Post
    Hi All, quick reply for PreciousHeart on the Dex, it is stronger than Prednisolone but more effective at restricting NK cell activity.

    I started Dex two weeks before our planned IVF cycle and fell pg naturally after countless chemical pregnancies.

    When you get your BFP you will be on Dex until 8-10 weeks then transition to Prednisolone as the placenta takes over from the yolk sack. Dr M is super aware of the cross-over issues of Dex and will get you onto Pred as soon as your body and bub can transition (for me we tried at 8 weeks, but ended up going back to Dex and transitioning at 10 weeks following an intralipid infusion and lots of blood tests).

    I had high NK uterine cells, but the bigger issue I think was the NK cells in my blood ******. Had testing with Dr S in Bondi and I have normal levels, but highly activated. SimpsonDesert is right, the testing is different between Dr S and Dr M, but I would go with Dr M's stronger protocol and trust his success stories. He definitely has the best interests of you and your bubs at heart.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to sootymay For This Useful Post:

    PreciousHeart  (02-11-2013)

  5. #873
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    Timetoshine, Litefantastic and Sootymay thank you all for your comments and the detailed information, it is such a huge help. I have taken 2 x 0.5mg Dex today so far and can feel it wiring me up already!

    Nidhulaine I dug out my biopsy report done through Genea - report is by Prof P Russell, he actually counts the cells under a microscope I was told (my CD57+ uterine count was 30/mm2) ... the report states that "A cell count for CD57+ NK cells >10/mm2 is above the 75th percentile and probably abnormal." It sites a publication Russell et al 2011 Journal of Reproductive Immunology 91: 90-102 (page numbers) - if you google it you can read an abstract from the paper on jrijournal, interesting but obviously Dr Beers' book covers all this anyway. Frustrating that others report with different power fields on the microscope which needs conversion I guess!

    I don't know the levels of my NK cells in the bloods as I found it hard to get a copy from Dr M - I will get my GP to request from Laverty so I can see them - but he said there was a mild imbalance, nothing to be too concerned over... I guess the dex is for the level of CD57 in the womb? Would be great to know what level Sacks is looking at, how high it was? Maybe Dr M wasn't that phased cause he sees people with CD57 at 300/mm2 he told me when I asked what was the highest he'd seen. He also said he treats anything over 5/mm2 in the womb. But as to why Dex and not Prednisolone, I didn't ask cause I was too busy thinking of myself and hadn't yet researched what these drugs can do to the fetus... kicking myself!

    Something I wanted to bring up with everyone is the importance of keeping your vitamins and minerals up whilst taking steriods etc. If you google drugs that deplete magnesium, steroids are right up there and magnesium is so crucial to fertility, preventing miscarriage, sleep, heart health, mood etc - I take bioceuticals ultra muscle ease powder and it has made a HUGE difference to my well being - I really think that in addition to calcium supps you should all look into magnesium dose at least 400mg per day (please research it yourself and make your own decisions!) - zinc gets depleted too and probably most things, B vitamins etc, so make sure you protect yourselves and your bubs from deficiencies and depletions, so important when on strong medications and I find that doctors don't tell you these things generally...

    This is a long post! rant over

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to PreciousHeart For This Useful Post:

    Nidhulaine  (02-11-2013),StillHope  (02-11-2013),Tamagotchi  (04-11-2013)

  7. #874
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    Hi All
    Nidhulaine: I too saw Dr S at & tried the Bondi Protocol on a full cycle. My testing through him showed "extremely high nK cells in both blood & uterine. i think blood was 21% & CD57 @ 50mml/2. He also told me it was one of the highest he had seen...so we went ahead & tried the Bondi Protocol thinking this was it!
    We got 5 embryos put 2 back in on the fresh cycle. From memory I was on 30mg Prednisolone, 20mg clexane & 2x 200mg progesterone daily. We got to 5 weeks then it stopped.
    Tried 2 more FETs after that with increased dosages of prednisolone up to 40mg but again no luck. I had told Dr S that I had seen Dr M & would be seeking his treatment plan if the last one with him was unsuccessful - he wasn't very happy but what could he do. He recommended PGD Array with next full cycle. we decided that this would be our last attempt so we threw everything in did a full cycle with Dr S with PGD array got 5 perfectly tested embies & also went with Dr Ms protocol.
    Dr M also did testing & my levels we similar showing activity high in both. He started me on Dex 3 x 5mg daily, 40mg clexane, 400mg progesterone 2x daily, plus antibiotic 10days before transfer. I had intralipid 4 days before transfer too. Did transfer & hey presto we fell pregnant first go on Dr Ms protocol. Dr S believed it was due to the PGD testing but I put it down to both!
    I stayed in dex until 10 weeks as I had a lot of bleeding from the get go so Dr M wanted to keep me on as its stronger, switched over to prednisolone at 35mg per day
    Preciousheart:as you can see Dex worked for me, unfortunately we lost out little boy Cairo at 21.5 weeks due to other issues non related to the protocol or iVF.
    I have now recently done an FET on the same treatment plan Dr M had me on,
    so 3 weeks before transfer I started on 3 x 5mg Dex, 20mg Clexane & 2x400mg Progesterone, an intralipid 7 days before transfer & I am now 6 weeks pregnant.
    i have increased Dex to 4 x 5mg daily & Cleaxane to 40mg, same amount of progesterone, taking Calcium with Vit D, Preg. vitamins, extra folate & 4 x 1500mg fish oil, might now add magnesium after reading your post. In relation to the intralipds I will be having them once a month until 12
    weeks where I will do another NK marker test to see how my levels are & if I need more.

    All the best!

    Kiwi
    Me (35) DH(33)
    TTC since 2009: 4 Full ICSI. 5 chemicals - 2 BFN. Diagnosed with NK cells 3rd cycle.
    Transfer # 8 = Cairo 21.5 weeks.
    Transfer # 9 = Currently 6 weeks pregnant!!

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kiwi77 For This Useful Post:

    Nidhulaine  (02-11-2013),sootymay  (02-11-2013),StillHope  (02-11-2013)

  9. #875
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    Just checked my results and the bloods were normal but the biopsy showed cd56+ 380 per single high power field and cd57+ 3 per single high power field. I would say you are on dex cause of it being cd 57 that is the issue, they are much harder to treat than cd56. I know the scale is different so probably not much help but thought I would post it anyway xx

  10. #876
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    Oh and it showed my cd4 and cd8 were out of balance but didn't say exact numbers

  11. #877
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    Thanks so much timetoshine... gee those CD57s are a bugger aren't they?! no idea what single high power field means... I'd guess it means your level was 3 and they haven't doubled or quadrupled the count?? Thanks for sharing!

    Looks like I will have my first ever intralipids on Sunday 10th, if anyone else will be in, will be great to meet you!

  12. #878
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    Hi Kiwi77, thanks so much for your great post, it is so informative and generous of you to share all the details of your protocols... I read back through the whole two threads yesterday and I was so sad to read of your loss of Cairo, it made me cry... know that he loves you and how much you always love him and is eternally in your heart... I can't imagine such an experience Kiwi, you are amazing and I am so happy for you that you are pregnant again you actually gave me the courage to start the Dex today! I really think magnesium will be good for you as, being on big steroids for a while, you may be quite deficient, I dont' think it can hurt, I plan to take it for the rest of my life, it made such a difference and it helps you sleep so well too! Actually, I just noticed you said you're taking 4 x 5mg Dex, do you mean 0.5mg or 5mg... I'm on 4 x 0.5mg after transfer if I get there... 3 from today.... I started an IVF cycle yesterday after being on the pill for 4 weeks, prior to that I was cancelled in October as my ovaries appeared to be on strike and not responding to 350 puregon for 14 days! first time that happened but I blame it on the grape seed extract I was taking for 2 months, I think it is an aromatase inhibitor so probably wasn't a good idea and my hormones went wonky, well wonkier than they normally are anyway! (I'm giving GSE to DH for quality).

    Anyway hope you're all having a good weekend and sootymay you're getting your packing done for your exciting adventure!

  13. #879
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    Preciousheart - thanks for your well wishes - and thank you so much for telling us all about extra vitamins and magnesium. I'm so glad I logged on to read - as I woke up to the WORSE cramp in my calf muscle last night, OMG it was bad. I was rolling around in the bed and DH is telling me to relax - hard to do when you're muscle feels like it's going to explode and is rock hard.

    And then I read your post. Thank you so much for sharing that with us all. I wondered if maybe it was a reaction to the Dex - I take a lot of vitamins anyway and at one stage did take magnesium. I'm going to go out and buy it tomorrow - my calf muscle is sooo sore today and I hope it doesn't happen again tonight...... I've just taken another of my Bioceuticals InNatal in the meantime, which has some mag in it & I'm already on the Caltrate Plus that Dr M did recommend and that has some mag in it too but not a lot (its the Calcium that he uses it for).

    I just Googled it too and this web page was quite good - very interesting, especially if you read right down the bottom.

    I'm hoping I'll be sleeping like a lamb & all la la and relaxed after a dose of Magnesium now... mmh may not be quite so lucky whilst on dex, but at least it may take some of the edge off !!!

    http://www.jigsawhealth.com/resources/drug-muggers-suzy-cohen-magnesium


    Kiwi - thanks heaps for your post too. Valuable information, it's just so wonderful this forum, I always feel more reassured & not so alone when I read such information.
    Last edited by sootymay; 02-11-2013 at 20:55.

  14. #880
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    Hi sootymay, yes magnesium is the best... hope your leg settles down, I guess you'll check it's nothing to do with blood clotting (not that I know ANYTHING about that except a friend of mine thought she'd sprained her calf jogging once and it turned out to be a huge clot from taking the Diane contraceptive pill, was awfully dangerous) just thinking with you going on a flight to make sure you're ok, not sure how you do that, unless you've had pain before and know your own body etc?...

    I just looked it up a bit and see that leg pain, cramps is a symptom of dex and that they mention potassium loss too... I know mg deficiency does cause leg cramps etc, I used to get them, probably restless leg syndrome, kept me up at night - the mg in those supps (I take inNatal too) is not enough - if you research you'll see that women should be getting 400-800mg per day, there's no way I eat that much spinach or even chocolate ha ha... PLUS calcium and mg are "married" to each other as my acupuncturist says so they should be taken together in a way to avoid imbalances - again look it all up for yourselves to make your own decisions, I have so much information in my head from years of googling, swallowing pills and potions, naturopaths and acupuncturists that I can't remember it all!!! Steroids cause imbalances of minerals it seems so look after yourselves!


 

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