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  1. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Where are you getting your information from? I don't want links, but if you could name the orgnasations you are getting your info from I would appreciate it.
    Wikipedia & religious organisations, why?
    no, just kidding, i studied the issue in a tertiary ethics course, so medical & psych journals, etc. but that was a few years ago - I no longer have access to that info but let me tell you, I will never ever ever forget what I hve learned. There is stacks of info online if you're brave enough to look, but you do have to sift trough a lot to find reputable info. Sa is the only state that keeps & shares abortion data.

    anoter thing that people seem to be confused about is whether or not a baby is allowed to have measures to take its life once it is born. When he babies head is born, it can be left & denied life saving treatment, but it cannot be purposely 'killed' when it is no longer in the mother. That is why there are partial birth aboetions where the body is delivered, but not the head, until the life can e terminated. The baby can have measures to take its life in the mothers body (or even part way in), but not when it is all the way out of her.

    this is something I find very difficult to discuss, and I know I haven't been very eloquent in this thread & may come across as insensitive. (Kirsti?) I am so sorry if I've caused you distress, or anyone else who has suffered a loss, etc. I do find it difficult to discuss details without giving TOO much detail. But I also think that the pc 'don't speak the truth in case it causes offence' surrounding abortion is why people understand so little about it. We are too scared to say what actually happens to the babies. I am still shocked & horrified by some attitudes of 'who cares what happens to the baby, as long as we don't offend the mother' and I wil never ever understand the cruelty towards our babies - we treat dogs being put to sleep with more respect.

  2. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by headoverfeet View Post
    What legislation would allow someone else to override my bodily autonomy if I was sane and hadn't done anything illegal or wasn't suspected in doing anything illegal?
    I know its illegal to end your own life. But in parts of the world the LAW can choose to end your life.

  3. #433
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    For me, it is not "who cares what happens to the baby", but until that baby can survive outside the womb, then for me, the mother comes first, the mother must always come first.

    I am actually glad that you have spoken about what happens. For a minute it made me question my beliefs, but I have come back around to believing that a woman should not ever be treated as an incubator, and that on the most part women who are choosing to have late term abortions are doing it because they feel they have to, most are not doing it because of gender. I don't believe they enter into it lightly and I am sure it cannot be easy.

    I believe 100% that women should have access to safe abortions if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderella82 View Post
    Wikipedia & religious organisations, why?
    no, just kidding, i studied the issue in a tertiary ethics course, so medical & psych journals, etc. but that was a few years ago - I no longer have access to that info but let me tell you, I will never ever ever forget what I hve learned. There is stacks of info online if you're brave enough to look, but you do have to sift trough a lot to find reputable info. Sa is the only state that keeps & shares abortion data.

    anoter thing that people seem to be confused about is whether or not a baby is allowed to have measures to take its life once it is born. When he babies head is born, it can be left & denied life saving treatment, but it cannot be purposely 'killed' when it is no longer in the mother. That is why there are partial birth aboetions where the body is delivered, but not the head, until the life can e terminated. The baby can have measures to take its life in the mothers body (or even part way in), but not when it is all the way out of her.

    this is something I find very difficult to discuss, and I know I haven't been very eloquent in this thread & may come across as insensitive. (Kirsti?) I am so sorry if I've caused you distress, or anyone else who has suffered a loss, etc. I do find it difficult to discuss details without giving TOO much detail. But I also think that the pc 'don't speak the truth in case it causes offence' surrounding abortion is why people understand so little about it. We are too scared to say what actually happens to the babies. I am still shocked & horrified by some attitudes of 'who cares what happens to the baby, as long as we don't offend the mother' and I wil never ever understand the cruelty towards our babies - we treat dogs being put to sleep with more respect.

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  5. #434
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    Cinderella- please keep your overseas (predominantly USA based) information off this thread. I've quietly read along since the thread started. The details you are supplying are incredibly distressing and inflammatory. My biggest issue with this info though is that the abortions you describe do not happen in australia. Whilst we have access to late term abortion, they are not partial abortions killing the child (inless mefically inviable and it would cause the foetus too much pain)nor do they allow suffocation of a child through labour in late term abortions. After birth if no medical reasons intervene a child after 24 weeks is cared for and resussitsted and given a chance to live, unless they have a condition non compatible with life. If this medical reason is the case the child is treated with care, respect and pain relief if needed. Unless parents are too distressed- they are asked to hold the child until it passes.

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  7. #435
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    I have stayed clear of this aspect of the debate, but since we are discussing it... what would have happened with the situation in the OP where there was no medical issues? Would the baby have been born then given to the mother? what if she didn't want to hold it? If no injection or measures are taken except induction, her baby would have been born alive? what would have happened? Genuine, non-loaded question btw...

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    Thanks babybabycakes for the clarification!

    Quote Originally Posted by babybabycakes View Post
    Cinderella- please keep your overseas (predominantly USA based) information off this thread. I've quietly read along since the thread started. The details you are supplying are incredibly distressing and inflammatory. My biggest issue with this info though is that the abortions you describe do not happen in australia. Whilst we have access to late term abortion, they are not partial abortions killing the child (inless mefically inviable and it would cause the foetus too much pain)nor do they allow suffocation of a child through labour in late term abortions. After birth if no medical reasons intervene a child after 24 weeks is cared for and resussitsted and given a chance to live, unless they have a condition non compatible with life. If this medical reason is the case the child is treated with care, respect and pain relief if needed. Unless parents are too distressed- they are asked to hold the child until it passes.

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    If I'm reading correctly, partial-birth abortion was banned in the States in 2003 and in 2007 the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of this ban. There is a clause for extreme medical cases, if the mother's life is at risk. This constant argument like its common practice is a moot point.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 02-05-2013 at 18:58.

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  13. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybabycakes View Post
    Cinderella- please keep your overseas (predominantly USA based) information off this thread. I've quietly read along since the thread started. The details you are supplying are incredibly distressing and inflammatory. My biggest issue with this info though is that the abortions you describe do not happen in australia. Whilst we have access to late term abortion, they are not partial abortions killing the child (inless mefically inviable and it would cause the foetus too much pain)nor do they allow suffocation of a child through labour in late term abortions. After birth if no medical reasons intervene a child after 24 weeks is cared for and resussitsted and given a chance to live, unless they have a condition non compatible with life. If this medical reason is the case the child is treated with care, respect and pain relief if needed. Unless parents are too distressed- they are asked to hold the child until it passes.
    That is absolutely NOT true. I cited earlier in this thread a parliamentary report which documented 14 live births following abortion in WA, all after 20 weeks and at least one after 26 weeks gestation. The babies were denied medical intervention and are not recorded with a birth certificate for RBDM. The report was from a couple of years ago but it was raised as recently as March this year before the state election in WA.

    So deny away babybabycakes, but it doesn't alter the facts.

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  15. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That is absolutely NOT true. I cited earlier in this thread a parliamentary report which documented 14 live births following abortion in WA, all after 20 weeks and at least one after 26 weeks gestation. The babies were denied medical intervention and are not recorded with a birth certificate for RBDM. The report was from a couple of years ago but it was raised as recently as March this year before the state election in WA.

    So deny away babybabycakes, but it doesn't alter the facts.
    In Victoria a dr will deny a baby medical intervention until 24 weeks. It's the law for them to not try to save a baby until 24 weeks gestation no matter how the baby arrives (ie premature labor). So besides your 26 week example, the state of Victoria (and I assume other states) will not try to save any baby before 24 weeks as that is when they are considered viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I have stayed clear of this aspect of the debate, but since we are discussing it... what would have happened with the situation in the OP where there was no medical issues? Would the baby have been born then given to the mother? what if she didn't want to hold it? If no injection or measures are taken except induction, her baby would have been born alive? what would have happened? Genuine, non-loaded question btw...
    This is what I've been trying to get an answer on for days ...


 

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