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  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post

    And here I have to agree with my philosophy lecturer; if you believe, truly believe, that abortion is murder (which I do not, but let's run with this for a moment) then it's murder whether your baby is perfectly healthy or severely disabled... Or a girl.

    And if you do not believe that it's murder, then why oppose it? Why is it so in one instance but not another?
    I really don't like that word, but I see abortion as the ending of a life. Despite the fact I may well have died if I had not sought medical help, yes I see that I ended the life of my child. That is why, 9 months on, I can't move past it. The guilt has been immense.

    In the case of something like trisomy or massive congenital issues, most babies die within hours of birth, sometimes in utero. Some parents believe it is better to end it's suffering.

    And (and this is the clincher!) if we are to accept that different people have different definitions of these things and different thresholds with which they're comfortable, then we are free to label ourselves "pro-choice" and accept that while something might contravene our beliefs, it does not contravene everybody's.
    and this is why, despite aborting for gender making me feel ill, I accept there has to be choice. I readily recognise not everyone holds my views and I would never expect another woman to keep a child based on my own opinion.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    And here I have to agree with my philosophy lecturer; if you believe, truly believe, that abortion is murder (which I do not, but let's run with this for a moment) then it's murder whether your baby is perfectly healthy or severely disabled... Or a girl.

    And if you do not believe that it's murder, then why oppose it? Why is it so in one instance but not another?

    And (and this is the clincher!) if we are to accept that different people have different definitions of these things and different thresholds with which they're comfortable, then we are free to label ourselves "pro-choice" and accept that while something might contravene our beliefs, it does not contravene everybody's.
    You're lecturer has made an assumption that if someone is against abortion they must believe it to be murder and I would guess that this is not always the case. You might be against abortion and not believe it to be murder. Your lecturer has tried to make it a black and white issue which it is not.

    By this line of thinking, if someone was "pro-choice" (using your lecturer's definition) then if there were a situation where a 9 month pregnant woman was assaulted and lost the baby then it's no biggie, her being pregnant with a full term baby would not make the crime any more heinous.

    I am of the opinion that if a fetus may be viable outside the womb then there has to be a good reason to abort that fetus. The "wrong gender" is not a good reason.

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  4. #383
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    I was thinking about that... The essay may have been specifically worded to address the question of murder. It was quite a few years ago and my memory grows dim.

    Good call

    And I agree totally with your last. Viability outside the womb is an important factor of my own opinion on this.
    Last edited by lambjam; 01-05-2013 at 21:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    And (and this is the clincher!) if we are to accept that different people have different definitions of these things and different thresholds with which they're comfortable, then we are free to label ourselves "pro-choice" and accept that while something might contravene our beliefs, it does not contravene everybody's.
    BigRedV I note you thanked this post. Up until now you've been very black and white about what it means to be pro choice. Are you now accepting we do not all have to agree with your definition on this?

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    and as a side, we have again proved that we are able to discuss very sensitive topics without mod intervention Can you all believe this discussion has remained so civil?

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  8. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    I am of the opinion that if a fetus may be viable outside the womb then there has to be a good reason to abort that fetus. The "wrong gender" is not a good reason.
    So I'm lost on this last point. My position on this also depends on what happens after the "baby" is aborted. Lambjam contends the mother has no say once the fetus is delivered, but there were links on here a few days ago (which I couldn't bring myself to read tbh) saying if it is an abortion then life saving medication will be denied.

    Which is it? Does anyone know?

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    I think it depends on the gestation Sonja, but don't quote me on that. Under 25 weeks they allow the baby to pass without any medical assistance, beyond that they have to. But again, I'm happy for someone to tell me I'm wrong...

  10. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    So I'm lost on this last point. My position on this also depends on what happens after the "baby" is aborted. Lambjam contends the mother has no say once the fetus is delivered, but there were links on here a few days ago (which I couldn't bring myself to read tbh) saying if it is an abortion then life saving medication will be denied.

    Which is it? Does anyone know?
    Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean and I skipped over any posts or links with remotely distressing information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    So I'm lost on this last point. My position on this also depends on what happens after the "baby" is aborted. Lambjam contends the mother has no say once the fetus is delivered, but there were links on here a few days ago (which I couldn't bring myself to read tbh) saying if it is an abortion then life saving medication will be denied.

    Which is it? Does anyone know?
    This is a really difficult thing to clarify without being too graphic. You cannot explain a procedure such as abortion in detail without giving detail. I think it has a huge part to play in the confusion and misinformation and ignorance surrounding abortion. And again, people honestly do not want to know. Generally people don't want to know what happens to he baby or how it dies, or as a pp put it earlier, 'why does it matter how it dies?'. I am genuinely shocked that people who are so pro choice know so little about abortion & the details of what actually happens.


    So to answer the question with as scarce as detail as possible, a late term abortion, the foetus will either have its life terminated in utero to make sure it is not born living (for eg, a lethal injection). Or it will be born alive & be left to no longer be alive any more. Or a D & E will be performed on the foetus in utero & it will not survive the process.
    I think this is why many people are anti-abortion. Not because try don't want the woman to have choice over her body, but it is devastating to know what happens to these tiny little babies. When I am pregnant, I feel like my uterus should be the safest place that my baby will ever be. I find it devastating that so many babies are denied the comfort an safety of their mothers uterus.

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  13. #390
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    At 25 weeks we weren't asked if we wanted to resuscitate DD, it was just done. I believe at 23 weeks or earlier its up to the parents.


 

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