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  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    That's just your opinion, there is no 'fact' that says they are the same thing and certainly not that they are "totally different".
    That's your moral compass, not mine and certainly not everyone's!
    You are absolutely right, of course it's my opinion, I never said it was fact. But I find it very difficult to understand how anyone could put a termination for something like trisomy or an ectopic pg in the same basket as terminating bc the child was the wrong gender. I would go further into why I see them as poles apart, but given we have several who have terminated for medical reasons I won't.

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  3. #372
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    I take issue with the definition of "pro choice" that's been given. I have no issue with a woman having an abortion up to roughly 14 or so weeks. Up to 24 weeks I think it should be a case by case basis and reasonable grounds required. I cannot, however, sanction an abortion that could (by using this definition) theoretically happen during labour without any reason other than the woman changed her mind. I will still continue to call myself pro-choice even though I have some boundaries. It is not a black and white issue.

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  5. #373
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    But as I said earlier, the definition of pro-choice need only extend to a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, not to terminate a viable baby. So a woman in labour is already in the throes of terminating her pregnancy (for want of a nicer word!) and would have no claim to killing the baby in the name of bodily autonomy.

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    I saw a great quote on Facebook yesterday about this subject:

    Being pro-choice doesn't mean I am pro-abortion.
    It just means that I know that it's none of my business.

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  9. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    You are absolutely right, of course it's my opinion, I never said it was fact. But I find it very difficult to understand how anyone could put a termination for something like trisomy or an ectopic pg in the same basket as terminating bc the child was the wrong gender. I would go further into why I see them as poles apart, but given we have several who have terminated for medical reasons I won't.
    I can imagine there would be childless people who would give the world for any child, even one who was severely disabled. I think that's all Jellyfishie is putting forward.

    And here I have to agree with my philosophy lecturer; if you believe, truly believe, that abortion is murder (which I do not, but let's run with this for a moment) then it's murder whether your baby is perfectly healthy or severely disabled... Or a girl.

    And if you do not believe that it's murder, then why oppose it? Why is it so in one instance but not another?

    And (and this is the clincher!) if we are to accept that different people have different definitions of these things and different thresholds with which they're comfortable, then we are free to label ourselves "pro-choice" and accept that while something might contravene our beliefs, it does not contravene everybody's.
    Last edited by lambjam; 01-05-2013 at 21:05.

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  11. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I can imagine there would be childless people who would give the world for any child, even one who was severely disabled. I think that's all Jellyfishie is put forward.

    And here I have to agree with my philosophy lecturer; if you believe, truly believe, that abortion is murder (which I do not, but let's run with this for a moment) then it's murder whether your baby is perfectly healthy or severely disabled... Or a girl.

    And if you do not believe that it's murder, then why oppose it? Why is it so in one instance but not another?
    I do believe it is murder. However I believe it is justifiable murder up to around 12 weeks, and after that only in cases of severe abnormality etc.

    How can you not think aborting a baby at say 24 weeks is not murder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckduckgoose View Post
    How can you not think aborting a baby at say 24 weeks is not murder?
    I think there's a huge distinction between killing a foetus at 24 weeks and inducing labour at 24 weeks.

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    Why does abortion always have to be so black and white? Why does pro-choice have to be so totally in support abortion no matter what? Why does pro-life have to be totally in support of no abortion. Is there no common sense or ethical approach to this? If we base it on science, which IVF, Gender selection and all that stuff is, is it not ethical to also involve a scientific model of when a fetus becomes not only viable but also when able to sense? If we are going to allow abortion at all costs to ethics then society has failed as a liberal state. If we are going to embrace liberalism would it not also be fair to include viable and sensing human embryos amongst the numbers that deserve the same rights as others?

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    I think people are trying to flesh out the thought process behind their beliefs. Just going with gut feelings isn't really adequate when we're telling people what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

    I think this kind of examination is brilliant; being able to explain and justify why I believe what I believe (to myself or publicly) is important to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post

    And here I have to agree with my philosophy lecturer; if you believe, truly believe, that abortion is murder (which I do not, but let's run with this for a moment) then it's murder whether your baby is perfectly healthy or severely disabled... Or a girl.

    And if you do not believe that it's murder, then why oppose it? Why is it so in one instance but not another?
    I really don't like that word, but I see abortion as the ending of a life. Despite the fact I may well have died if I had not sought medical help, yes I see that I ended the life of my child. That is why, 9 months on, I can't move past it. The guilt has been immense.

    In the case of something like trisomy or massive congenital issues, most babies die within hours of birth, sometimes in utero. Some parents believe it is better to end it's suffering.

    And (and this is the clincher!) if we are to accept that different people have different definitions of these things and different thresholds with which they're comfortable, then we are free to label ourselves "pro-choice" and accept that while something might contravene our beliefs, it does not contravene everybody's.
    and this is why, despite aborting for gender making me feel ill, I accept there has to be choice. I readily recognise not everyone holds my views and I would never expect another woman to keep a child based on my own opinion.


 

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