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  1. #351
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    lambjam is offline Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!
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    Quote Originally Posted by headoverfeet View Post
    I guess I don't understand because I see it as your either pro-choice or pro-life. A fetuses disability, gestation or gender should have nothing to do with it. You either value all life or you value choice. I see it as hypocritical to say your pro-life/pro-choice except for xyz.
    I'll never forget our philosophy ethics lecturer warning us that our essay could argue for or against abortion, but we would be failed for saying we were "anti except for...". She was addressing those who argue that abortion is only ok in certain circumstances, such as when the mother has been raped, because from a logical viewpoint it is either murder or it isn't.

    She could just as easily have forbidden us from saying we were "pro except for..." which is what many people in this thread seem to be. People who would have failed our essay
    Last edited by lambjam; 01-05-2013 at 18:07.

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  3. #352
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    That's kind of why I'm pro-choice regardless of how revolting and absurd I find the reasons, the timing of the termination or the way in which it's done.

    I don't have to like it - I just have to accept that the owner of the body gets to have that choice herself. I can think it's revolting and wrong and be outraged... but still accept and support it being her choice to do so.

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  5. #353
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    I am 100% comfortable with abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (genetic, non-medical, accidental pregnancy, gender ) - I don't need to know why but yes there are some reasons that make me less comfortable but a woman can choose and I don't care about the reasons.

    After 12 weeks I am 100% comfortable with abortion for medical reasons that lie with the baby, or in cases where the mother needs life saving treatment which will result in the baby's death.

    In other words beyond 12 weeks I am not comfortable at all with abortion at will.

    As for Sassy's comment that another person's abortion doesn't impact on me, I understand what you're saying but I also think the values society places on certain things do impact on my happiness generally. Being part of an infertile couple means I just think about those things a bit more close to home I guess. It's like saying the death penalty will never affect me so why do I care if we have it or not. It comes down to values which I believe should be important to a society which I am a part of.

    What troubles me greatly about LTA (ie after 24 weeks) is what was discussed a few days ago namely that with an abortion the foetus will be denied potentially life saving treatment, as distinct from a woman who goes into early labour.

    My current pregnancy was accidental. I get how it throws life into a tailspin. Life doesn't always turn out as planned.

    If this makes me pro life, then fine. But I'm sure as heck that after this thread I am not pro choice if I have to agree to what that means.

    Finally, bodily autonomy is overridden in many ways by legislation. I am a bit tired of the bodily autonomy argument on here as I don't think people understand it's not black and white. There are many, many laws and medical procedures which override bodily autonomy.

    No disrespect to anyone this is just MY view.

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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I'll never forget our philosophy ethics lecturer warning us that our essay could argue for or against abortion, but we would be failed for saying we were "anti except for...". She was addressing those who argue that abortion is only ok in certain circumstances, such as when the mother has been raped, because from a logical viewpoint it is either murder or it isn't.

    She could just as easily have forbidden us from saying we were "pro except for..." which is what many people in this thread seem to be. People who would have failed our essay
    This is why I'm a lawyer and not a philosopher

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    You're right. I have said that.

    I'm obviously not being clear enough to get my point across and I am struggling to find another way. So please forgive the following bluntness.

    Just because I disagree with 1 thing that requires bodily autonomy, doesn't mean I agree with all aspects of bodily autonomy.

    You sprouting that I am not for bodily autonomy is a negative overdramatic misrepresentation that I believe is intended to *insinuate* that I am wrong.... that I am anti-female because I don't agree with non-medically necessary abortion (which you disagree with).

    This doesn't bother me, I just wanted to try and lift the veil on perceived hidden meaning. And I am happy to stand corrected if I have Mis-interpreted your intent... !
    I am just saying that you can't say you support bodily autonomy when you don't think a woman should have choice.

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  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I am 100% comfortable with abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (genetic, non-medical, accidental pregnancy, gender ) - I don't need to know why but yes there are some reasons that make me less comfortable but a woman can choose and I don't care about the reasons.

    After 12 weeks I am 100% comfortable with abortion for medical reasons that lie with the baby, or in cases where the mother needs life saving treatment which will result in the baby's death.

    In other words beyond 12 weeks I am not comfortable at all with abortion at will.

    As for Sassy's comment that another person's abortion doesn't impact on me, I understand what you're saying but I also think the values society places on certain things do impact on my happiness generally. Being part of an infertile couple means I just think about those things a bit more close to home I guess. It's like saying the death penalty will never affect me so why do I care if we have it or not. It comes down to values which I believe should be important to a society which I am a part of.

    What troubles me greatly about LTA (ie after 24 weeks) is what was discussed a few days ago namely that with an abortion the foetus will be denied potentially life saving treatment, as distinct from a woman who goes into early labour.

    My current pregnancy was accidental. I get how it throws life into a tailspin. Life doesn't always turn out as planned.

    If this makes me pro life, then fine. But I'm sure as heck that after this thread I am not pro choice if I have to agree to what that means.

    Finally, bodily autonomy is overridden in many ways by legislation. I am a bit tired of the bodily autonomy argument on here as I don't think people understand it's not black and white. There are many, many laws and medical procedures which override bodily autonomy.

    No disrespect to anyone this is just MY view.
    After this thread, it is also my view. Thanks for articulating it so well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I am 100% comfortable with abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (genetic, non-medical, accidental pregnancy, gender ) - I don't need to know why but yes there are some reasons that make me less comfortable but a woman can choose and I don't care about the reasons.

    After 12 weeks I am 100% comfortable with abortion for medical reasons that lie with the baby, or in cases where the mother needs life saving treatment which will result in the baby's death.

    In other words beyond 12 weeks I am not comfortable at all with abortion at will.

    As for Sassy's comment that another person's abortion doesn't impact on me, I understand what you're saying but I also think the values society places on certain things do impact on my happiness generally. Being part of an infertile couple means I just think about those things a bit more close to home I guess. It's like saying the death penalty will never affect me so why do I care if we have it or not. It comes down to values which I believe should be important to a society which I am a part of.

    What troubles me greatly about LTA (ie after 24 weeks) is what was discussed a few days ago namely that with an abortion the foetus will be denied potentially life saving treatment, as distinct from a woman who goes into early labour.

    My current pregnancy was accidental. I get how it throws life into a tailspin. Life doesn't always turn out as planned.

    If this makes me pro life, then fine. But I'm sure as heck that after this thread I am not pro choice if I have to agree to what that means.

    Finally, bodily autonomy is overridden in many ways by legislation. I am a bit tired of the bodily autonomy argument on here as I don't think people understand it's not black and white. There are many, many laws and medical procedures which override bodily autonomy.

    No disrespect to anyone this is just MY view.
    Out of interest why 12 weeks? Can you really say your ok with it at 11.5 weeks but not at 12.5 weeks?

    Im honestly curious

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  15. #358
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Finally, bodily autonomy is overridden in many ways by legislation. I am a bit tired of the bodily autonomy argument on here as I don't think people understand it's not black and white. There are many, many laws and medical procedures which override bodily autonomy.

    No disrespect to anyone this is just MY view.
    What legislation would allow someone else to override my bodily autonomy if I was sane and hadn't done anything illegal or wasn't suspected in doing anything illegal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I am 100% comfortable with abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (genetic, non-medical, accidental pregnancy, gender ) - I don't need to know why but yes there are some reasons that make me less comfortable but a woman can choose and I don't care about the reasons.

    After 12 weeks I am 100% comfortable with abortion for medical reasons that lie with the baby, or in cases where the mother needs life saving treatment which will result in the baby's death.

    In other words beyond 12 weeks I am not comfortable at all with abortion at will.

    As for Sassy's comment that another person's abortion doesn't impact on me, I understand what you're saying but I also think the values society places on certain things do impact on my happiness generally. Being part of an infertile couple means I just think about those things a bit more close to home I guess. It's like saying the death penalty will never affect me so why do I care if we have it or not. It comes down to values which I believe should be important to a society which I am a part of.

    What troubles me greatly about LTA (ie after 24 weeks) is what was discussed a few days ago namely that with an abortion the foetus will be denied potentially life saving treatment, as distinct from a woman who goes into early labour.

    My current pregnancy was accidental. I get how it throws life into a tailspin. Life doesn't always turn out as planned.

    If this makes me pro life, then fine. But I'm sure as heck that after this thread I am not pro choice if I have to agree to what that means.

    Finally, bodily autonomy is overridden in many ways by legislation. I am a bit tired of the bodily autonomy argument on here as I don't think people understand it's not black and white. There are many, many laws and medical procedures which override bodily autonomy.

    No disrespect to anyone this is just MY view.
    100% with you.

  17. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by headoverfeet View Post
    What legislation would allow someone else to override my bodily autonomy if I was sane and hadn't done anything illegal or wasn't suspected in doing anything illegal?
    Forcibly tube feeding mental health patients particularly anorexics is one. Every time you submit to random breath test. There are several sorry making dinner you can google them if you want to know. Urine tests when you are suspected of a crime (but not having committed one).


 

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