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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I can't understand this view. If a child was being abused by its parents out of utero would you say "not my child not my choice"?

    Legislating over things that don't directly affect you.... That's nothing new, it's a part of life already.
    Of course not. As someone studying to get into the field of child protection, children's rights mean the world to me. But, until that child is a person in it's own right, the mother's rights trump, as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by trustno1 View Post
    So according to most people in this thread, the parents should have been 'forced' to have this child?
    While I feel its terrible that these people chose to abort because of gender, can you imagine what sort of life the poor child would have had if it had been born to these people?
    Yes, they could give their daughter up for adoption, but if they chose abortion over that option in the first place, what do you think the likelihood of that would be?
    So instead of terminating their child, they carry it to term, and then treat the child like crap because it is the wrong gender for the rest of its life. Because in reality, if you are prepared to abort when halfway through a pregnancy because of gender, you obviously have a stuffed up view of life.
    I would personally feel more comfortable with this child being aborted, than having to suffer the psychological harm it would endure for 'being the wrong sex'
    Well said.

    I think we have to try and look at things from the other side, too. If we have anti-abortion laws, we therefore have forced birth. Why is it okay to force a woman to carry and birth a child that she does not want? How will that child be treated by the parent/s if it is not wanted? Will it suffer? Will it create even more strain on the departments of children's services? It's all very well and good to suggest that the baby be put up for adoption, but there's still problems with this. You are still forcing a woman to be pregnant and to give birth against her will, and adoption is not an easy process, it can be long and hard. Do we want to place more children in the system?

    Look, as I've stated already, I'm okay with laws that govern over abortions (doctors signing off, ethics committees, no abortions for superficial reasons such as eye/hair colour), I have the be okay with it, we are NEVER going to be in a position where an abortion is granted past a certain gestation for reasons such as eye colour. But we absolutely must allow abortions "just because" up to a certain point (and I believe it's as late as 24 weeks as generally, up to this point the unborn is incompatible with life), after that point, there are restrictions in place. They may be medical on the grounds of the health of the unborn, or the physical OR mental health of the woman.

    I'm not really sure what more people want? We absolutely cannot have complete anti-abortion laws. They're dangerous, for a myriad of reasons, so we have abortion laws with restrictions and conditions.

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  3. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    I'm not really sure what more people want? We absolutely cannot have complete anti-abortion laws. They're dangerous, for a myriad of reasons, so we have abortion laws with restrictions and conditions.
    I agree we cannot go back to the days of the backyard abortion but I guess for me, I think our laws in Victoria are just too relaxed. I actually don't think they help women at all. I would almost go as far as to say its just a way to reduce the number of young mums, single mums, poor mums- all are scorned to a certain extent, and there is definitely this idea that 'they should've just had an abortion', I mean thats what its there for, right? I remember when I was young and pregnant, people asking me was I going to 'get rid of it'. Because why would you keep a baby in those circumstances?

    Not every unexpected pregnancy will result in a child that is unloved and resented. I really hate this assumption. My first two were unplanned and abortion wasn't an option for me due to my beliefs. I was devastated, as was my (now) husband, but we both love our children more than anything, by the end of each of my pregnancies, I loved them more than words can describe, despite being horrified and scared when I had initially found out (and my husband begging me to terminate). I am thankful every day that I was brought up against abortion, because had I not been, I would've terminated, and missed out on two of the most beautiful precious things in my life.

    Then theres the expectation that a child with DS and similar will be terminated. There is less and less support for people to continue with these pregnancies because of the 'cost' to the community, when its so easy to discontinue the pregnancy.

    Not to mention the number of girls and women who are coerced into abortion by their partners/mothers. It really upsets me. I just don't think more relaxed laws is helping women at all.

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  5. #323
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    I agree to an extent Annabella. Our society can only be truly said to be pro-choice when it embraces and supports all choices. In many instances I think abortion is put forward as the only valid choice, it saddens me that we may have swung too far the other way.

    I must clarify, I don't say this because I have any reservations about the morality of abortion, that isn't my concern. But a woman whose true choice would have been to keep her baby but for a lack of support? That's heartbreaking and, I suspect, far too common.

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  7. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by mama and her little bear View Post
    It was me who said I don't think people realise,

    What happens with medically required termination is different, the methods performed are done to give the grieving parents a chance to meet, hold and mourn the loss of their little ones which is why early induction is chosen
    I wasn't referring to your comment. There have been two others that have been quite offensive, etc on here.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 30-04-2013 at 10:45.

  8. #325
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    Lillynix - I don't think anyone in this thread has said we should be an anti-abortion society, just that there are a lot of factors to consider in regulating the practice, so that we don't ever get to a point where it's just common practice with no questions asked.

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  10. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabella View Post
    I agree we cannot go back to the days of the backyard abortion but I guess for me, I think our laws in Victoria are just too relaxed. I actually don't think they help women at all. I would almost go as far as to say its just a way to reduce the number of young mums, single mums, poor mums- all are scorned to a certain extent, and there is definitely this idea that 'they should've just had an abortion', I mean thats what its there for, right? I remember when I was young and pregnant, people asking me was I going to 'get rid of it'. Because why would you keep a baby in those circumstances?

    Not every unexpected pregnancy will result in a child that is unloved and resented. I really hate this assumption. My first two were unplanned and abortion wasn't an option for me due to my beliefs. I was devastated, as was my (now) husband, but we both love our children more than anything, by the end of each of my pregnancies, I loved them more than words can describe, despite being horrified and scared when I had initially found out (and my husband begging me to terminate). I am thankful every day that I was brought up against abortion, because had I not been, I would've terminated, and missed out on two of the most beautiful precious things in my life.

    Then theres the expectation that a child with DS and similar will be terminated. There is less and less support for people to continue with these pregnancies because of the 'cost' to the community, when its so easy to discontinue the pregnancy.

    Not to mention the number of girls and women who are coerced into abortion by their partners/mothers. It really upsets me. I just don't think more relaxed laws is helping women at all.
    I didn't mean to imply that by a surprise/accidental pregnancy that all babies would be unwanted in those circumstances. I was more imagining a woman who fell pregnant and didn't want the baby, wanted to terminate the pregnancy with every fibre of her being, but was unable to do so due to anti-abortion laws, and then potentially resent that child for the rest of her life. It happens. Even without anti-abortion laws, that resentment towards babies/children still happens, so I can only imagine it would be more common with anti-abortion laws.

    I also agree with you that there are many times when a woman may feel pressure in to an abortion for a variety of reason, but this is where we need more support for women, outside of the home. This is where we need abortion to not be seen as a taboo subject. Often the ideal is to have an abortion before people find out about the pregnancy and therefore, never find out about the abortion. There is still such a huge stigma attached to abortions, when there shouldn't be. If it wasn't such a taboo subject, people could very well seek out more avenues of support when considering such a decision, and with that support, they may find that no, they don't want to see out an abortion after all.

    Support is where it's at. Support for women facing an unwanted pregnancy. Unbiased support to help them make the decision that is right for them, away from outside influences. Without the shame of considering abortion. Without that social taboo that is abortion.

  11. #327
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    I dont like the idea of abortion as a form of gender selection ... but I am also of the opinion that someone shouldn't be required to justify their decision to seek abortion.

    Therefore, if I was the lawmaker then abortion should be granted without grilling the woman as to the why, and therefore the unknown reason could theoretically be the distasteful gender selection one.

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  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    That's why there's a warning in the title and in the first line of the original post. Women have a responsibility to not read these types of threads if they think it will upset them.
    There is no warning on the tittle about late term abortion and there is quite a lot of graphic description in this thread.

    I find your post quite harsh, all i said is perhaps we should be mindful of what other women may be experiencing at the moment. The trigger warning says nothing about late term abortion or babies being born alive and dying.

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  15. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funchu View Post
    Lillynix - I don't think anyone in this thread has said we should be an anti-abortion society, just that there are a lot of factors to consider in regulating the practice, so that we don't ever get to a point where it's just common practice with no questions asked.
    But that's where we are now? There are still regulations on the practice of abortions. If anything they are too harsh. As I mentioned earlier, it's still currently a criminal offence in Tasmania. I think the laws in some states, and those being proposed here in Tasmania are a good middle ground.

    Proposed here is abortion for choice up to 16 weeks, after that, it required the referral/approval of two consenting Doctors. Doctors can object to refer a woman on for an abortion on religious/moral grounds, but they must refer her on to another Doctor who will agree, or face legal ramifications. I think that sounds pretty fair, as far as laws go...?

    I would personally, be happy to see abortion for choice up to 24 weeks up to this time, there is generally a stance not not compatible with life. But I understand others feel that is too far.

  16. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I've got another hypothetical to go along with Girl X's scenario.

    What if you could have an early amnio test to test for things:
    - eye color
    - hair color
    - IQ
    - athletic ability
    - whether your baby would sleep through the night before 12 months
    - whether your baby would look like his father, your ex partner?

    Would it be OK to terminate your baby if it was not that smart, a bad sleeper, couldnt kick a footy and looked like your ex?

    Just trying to figure out if there is a line of unethicalness past which pro-choicers think termination should be allowed.


    Would it be OK to terminate for
    I think you're missing the point that a lot of people are making about what it means to be pro-choice. It's not about deciding what you think is the right reason to terminate. It's like believing in freedom of speech. If you believe in freedom of speech you have to accept that people are going to say things that you don't agree with. You support their right to say those things because that is what living in a free and fair society is all about. You can't expect to be able to control other people.

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