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  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoThisIsLove View Post
    But would you take that right away from a woman?

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    If it was up to me ...yes. I'd have stipulations which apparently after reading along with this thread you're not allowed to have. It's either all for or all against.

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Unfortunately, as harsh as the next part is going to sound, I'm going to say it anyway.
    If we want gender equality for the entire world, then we need to realise it needs to start with us. Whether you force an abortion on a woman(China) or refuse to give one at all (Ireland), you are infringing on the rights of people already in existance and deeming something that only has the potential for life(and until it is successfully born and takes its first breath, it IS only potential to life, factually.

    Yes, this 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by wannawannabe View Post
    This is going to be unpopular, but with the exception of rape, Women have responsibilities as well, and one of those is that if they don't wish to fall pregnant is to use contraception.

    Yes there is a small failure rate even when contraception is used correctly, but it rather peeves me off when women go on about their rights to a termination but couldn't be bothered to make an effort to even try and prevent a pregnancy in the first place. And the withdrawal method doesn't count.
    It really isn't that rare, the failure rates I mean. even if you are talking 2 our of a hundred women, multiple that by the billions of women having sex around the world
    Here is are the failure rates for each contraceptive.

    http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealt...traception.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinderella82 View Post
    I just cannot fathom how someone can be so callous and hard hearted towards a tiny little baby.
    And I cannot believe how people can be so callous and hard hearted towards women.

    VP - I know you wrote me a post, but basically sassy answered it better than I could of.

    At the end of the day, I don't believe women should be treated like hosts, they are their own people, as sassy says- we all have different morals, and we should't inflict them on others. And I believe that a baby should have all the rights in the world once it can survive without the mothers womb.

    I have said over and over I actually find termination on grounds of gender horrifying. Just like I would find it on the grounds of hair colour and IQ. Personally I didn't get any tests like NT for my last 3 kids, I knew I would keep them no matter what. That is me though and that is my choice.

  3. #313
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    So according to most people in this thread, the parents should have been 'forced' to have this child?
    While I feel its terrible that these people chose to abort because of gender, can you imagine what sort of life the poor child would have had if it had been born to these people?
    Yes, they could give their daughter up for adoption, but if they chose abortion over that option in the first place, what do you think the likelihood of that would be?
    So instead of terminating their child, they carry it to term, and then treat the child like crap because it is the wrong gender for the rest of its life. Because in reality, if you are prepared to abort when halfway through a pregnancy because of gender, you obviously have a stuffed up view of life.
    I would personally feel more comfortable with this child being aborted, than having to suffer the psychological harm it would endure for 'being the wrong sex'

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  5. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    You're *partially* right. I mostly believe in bodily autonomy but I don't believe women should have it at all cost. When the right to bodily autonomy results in something I consider to be abhorrent (eg terminating a baby based on gender) then I am not embarrassed or ashamed to say I do not think women should have that right.
    You're against abortion unless medically necessary, so you don't believe in bodily autonomy.

  6. #315
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    PS, after reading this thread, I am completely conflicted. I am struggling with late term abortions and I feel they should be for medical/mental reasons. I don't think people should be able to terminate on gender or hair colour or whatever. But I also know that once people start messing with abortion laws, then it is a slippery slope and you end up like all those countries where the women have no rights over their own bodies.

    What about the 9 year old girl in Brazil, abused over and over by her stepfather, fell pregnant with twins. All the doctors agreed that termination was needed as she would most likely die, her body was too little to handle twins. So they medically terminated, (not late term) and her, her mother and all of the doctors were all ex communicated. The stepfather, who repeatedly raped her and her mentally disabled sister was not however, because apparently according to the church, raping children is not as bad as terminating.

    Now that- that right there is the reason I find it extremely important that women are allowed to make choices for their own bodies.

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  8. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoThisIsLove View Post
    What about amniocentesis? How early can that test determine sex? Im sure its only a matter of time before early gender detection is available. After all 50+ years ago you couldnt find out sex till birth.

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    An amnio can determine sex, and some clinics will do those from around 14 weeks (I had mine at 15 weeks).

    However, the new blood test for Down Syndrome can also determine sex, and I'm not sure how early that can be done?? I believe there is talk that it can be done early (first trimester), and that in the not too distant future it could replace amnios.

    It's all a very thorny issue. I don't believe a woman should be forced to carry a baby that she doesn't want, and I do think it's dangerous territory for a government to be able to legislate which reasons are deemed 'okay' to terminate and which aren't. If the woman does not want the baby (for whatever reason) then I believe she should be allowed to terminate.

    But I also understand that eventually this could lead us to a Brave New World type scenario, where we do screen for things like intelligence and appearance.

    I'm not sure what the right answer is here, but I feel uncomfortable with the concept of legislating based on reason for keeping or terminating a pregnancy. To me, if a pregnancy is not wanted then it is not wanted.

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  10. #317
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    I haven't read through all the comments since last night but I quickly saw a comment from Clementine asking people to be conscious of others in this thread and VicPark saying there's a warning.

    I don't think any of us entered this thread thinking some of the stuff that has been said was going to be. Yesterday there was an incredibly graphic comment (that a moderator has deleted) that had nothing to do with the argument of gender selection or even bodily anatomy, it was a comment to frighten us to their side of the argument. Since that comment I cannot stop thinking about what was described and had an awful night's sleep. I think everyone is able to maintain and participate in an intelligent debate (most in this thread have done just that) but still keep in mind that there are women who have lost their babies late-term for a variety of reasons and spreading fallacies about medical terminations; that we don't know what happens, or being too graphic doesn't have a place in this thread or on bubhub. I am fairly confident that what was described would rarely happen in a Western society and only ever for a complex medical reason.

    I can guarantee that women who have had a medical termination know exactly what has happened to their baby and a vast majority hold their babies immediately after they are born whether they have passed or are living. The baby is treated with the utmost respect and love. Sometimes a midwife will wrap them first, before you see them, if they feel the babies body is too distressing (often when a baby is of younger gestation because they are so tiny and thin). If you don't believe this then read some pregnancy loss books or have a read through a pregnancy loss support group. Trust me, we all know what happened to our babies and why. And judgement and fallacies of what you think happened is cruel. These were very much loved and wanted babies.

    Many have proved through this discussion that you can still participate and voice your opinion and still respect others.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 30-04-2013 at 15:00.

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  12. #318
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    I find it amazing that people go on about men who don't want to be fathers and sit there saying they should be abstinent and not have sex..then you get a women who gets pregnant and it's okay for them to terminate at any time of the pregnancy? I don't give a **** if it's her body. There is a life inside her... she chose to have sex.. she knows just like a man that a consequence of having sex is getting pregnant... I'm sorry.. but after a certain amount of time it's too bad so sad. If you don't want to have a baby then like people say about men DONT HAVE SEX!!! If you're going to terminate for non medical reasons then do it early.

  13. #319
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    Autonomy in medicine refers to a patient's right to make a rational choice about medical treatment bases on all of the facts, and without undue influence. It is not the overriding principle upon which all medical decisions should be made - there are other factors to consider. However, applying this definition of autonomy to the situation described in the OP, if the woman was either not in a fit mental state or her husband was unduly influencing her, the Dr had a duty of care to the patient to act in her best interests (medically speaking). I'd be very worried about the mental state of anyone who thought it was rational to terminate a baby at any time during a pregnancy because it was the 'wrong' sex.

    Societies have laws based on principles of ethics and morality for a reason. People have mentioned societies in which women are treated badly as examples of why women should be allowed to have abortions for whatever reason they want. I believe these societies are examples of why it's important to carefully consider society as a whole, and all ethical and moral considerations (not just the desires of any one individual) in making any laws. Otherwise, where does it end?

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  15. #320
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    Beautifully said Funchu.

    I too believe that autonomy should not override all other ethical considerations, but it seems to be the way we do it in our society.

    As for the slippery slope argument in relation to denying abortions to some will lead to denying abortions on medical grounds etc, I actually think the slope has slipped the other way. Where we DO have access to safe legal abortions for medical reasons (and not earlier in the pregnancy), and now we have slipped towards abortion on demand pretty much. Abortion laws are getting more and more relaxed, not the other way around.

    What about the 9 year old girl in Brazil, abused over and over by her stepfather, fell pregnant with twins. All the doctors agreed that termination was needed as she would most likely die, her body was too little to handle twins. So they medically terminated, (not late term) and her, her mother and all of the doctors were all ex communicated. The stepfather, who repeatedly raped her and her mentally disabled sister was not however, because apparently according to the church, raping children is not as bad as terminating.
    There was an amendment put forward in the 2008 Victoria Abortion reform that in cases of suspected abuse, it must be reported. Unfortunately, it was voted down, so in the case mentioned above, there would be absolutely no onus on the abortion provider to report her abuser.
    Last edited by Annabella; 30-04-2013 at 09:29.


 

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