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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janesmum123 View Post
    I thought pro choice is when a person has full control over what happens with their body no matter what the circumstances so in theory a person who is truly pro choice would believe that a women could terminate a pregnancy at 38 weeks if she wanted to.
    That was my understanding of someone who is truly/fully pro choice but I could be wrong.
    Well if that is correct (and I'm beginning to think it is) then no I guess I'm not pro choice. And I'm pretty ok about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    BRV all I'm asking is what is that definition? You keep saying people on here aren't pro choice but I'm genuinely asking what that means. What do you mean when you say you are pro choice?
    That a woman has control over her own body, no matter how repugnant we may find her choice!

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  4. #213
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    This is what Wikipedia says (for the pro- choice movement in the States), the very last sentence applies to this definition debate:

    'There are diverse arguments and rationales for the pro-choice stance.'
    Last edited by Kirst33; 29-04-2013 at 19:29.

  5. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funchu View Post
    RobinSparkles (cool name btw) - Maybe you're right & if you label yourself pro-choice or pro-life then it's all or nothing. The point I was trying to make is that people shouldn't have to subscribe to the ideals of one or the other. I choose not to label myself. Instead, I choose to look at each case on its merits & make a judgement about whether I feel the situation is right or wrong (according to my personal moral code). In the situation described, with the information available to me, I believe the choice to abort this baby just because she was a girl is morally wrong. If the woman had a gun to her head (or her life was threatened in another way), I might feel differently.
    See, that's fine. YOU are of course allowed to have your own moral code and draw a line of what YOU are okay with and what YOU are NOT okay with. But I do not believe that you (or anyone else) can take that moral code, and apply it to everyone. Especially not when making laws.

    As has already been established, Ireland and El Salvador have blanket rules for no abortions, and look what's going on there. Someone with strict moral codes has enforced laws to the detriment of women.

    Also have a look at New Mexico. In January THIS YEAR a bill was proposed that has the potential to have women prosecuted if they sought an abortion after they were the victims of sexual assault, under the guise of 'tampering with evidence'. So, if a woman fell pregnant after being rapes, she either continues the pregnancy, or faces prosecution. Another law in the making that was made with someone's own moral code and agenda at play that only serves to the detriment of women. (http://cathrynnbrown.com/page.php?t=hb_206)

    When it comes to the topic of abortion, reproductive rights and bodily autonomy (a topic I've just done a Uni assignment on, so obviously a topic i'm passionate about), the big issue is in regards to law, is that you can't judge on a case by case basis, that is far too much work and red tape and opens itself up for a legal mess. You can however, have sweeping laws, but I still personally believe, that these sweeping laws shouldn't take away a woman's right to her reproductive organs and bodily autonomy.

    Currently here in Tasmania a bill is being proposed (it's passed the lower house, so far) which serves to decriminalise abortions (yes, in 2013 it is still a criminal offence to have an abortion, though they are still accessible under the sign of two doctors). The initial bill was that a woman could have an abortion out of choice, up to 24 weeks without the sign off of two doctors, after that, two doctors would need to approve and sign off. But after outrage, that was dropped to 16 weeks. So, mothers choice up to 16 weeks, then with the approval of 2 doctors.

    So yes, there are laws that state how far is too far to terminate a pregnancy. If you want to go in to late term abortions, then it is SUCH a low percentage of women who seek out late term abortions. That percentage would be mostly made up of incompatible with life babies, or situations where the mother is at risk. It's also not an easy process to get through, usually involving counselling and an ethics committee.

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  7. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    That a woman has control over her own body, no matter how repugnant we may find her choice!
    So no time limit? In that case yep I'm definitely not pro choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Ok so I've never really thought about it in this level of detail. If you are truly pro choice does that mean any time up to birth is ok for a woman to have an abortion? I'm truly just trying t understand as the definition of pro choice is extremely broad and puts no time frame on the woman's right to choose. I definitely could never support an abortion at say 30 weeks. Does pro choice mean you have to? Because it does seem that way based n what I've read.
    I think people adjust the definition to suit their beliefs or what they are comfortable with and we all do that in life all the time so I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it but again in theory you are either pro choice or not. If so then you should believe a woman has a right to terminate whenever she wants, you wouldn't be able to say "I'm pro choice up to 16 weeks only" because that isn't pro choice. One could argue that it's her right to terminate at any stage it's her "choice" it's her body so by saying she can't terminate after 16 weeks you are taking her choice away therefor you are not pro choice.

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  11. #217
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    As a side note, if you're going to get worked up about abortions. Then direct yourself to a country like China, not Australia. Late term abortions are extremely common in China, for both male and female babies. Women have been known to be kidnapped, beaten, forced to sign forms they know nothing about, before being drugged before they have their pregnancies aborted. That happened as recently as this year, it also happened last year. These women were 7 months pregnant (despite their laws stating abortion is illegal after 6 months). They had 'over quota' pregnancies. With 13 million abortions said to occur every year in China, most of them are thought to be forced.

    So if you have an agenda, direct it at China. Not Australia

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  13. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funchu View Post
    RobinSparkles (cool name btw) - Maybe you're right & if you label yourself pro-choice or pro-life then it's all or nothing. The point I was trying to make is that people shouldn't have to subscribe to the ideals of one or the other. I choose not to label myself. Instead, I choose to look at each case on its merits & make a judgement about whether I feel the situation is right or wrong (according to my personal moral code). In the situation described, with the information available to me, I believe the choice to abort this baby just because she was a girl is morally wrong. If the woman had a gun to her head (or her life was threatened in another way), I might feel differently.

    Someone else mentioned the idea of having mandatory psychological evaluations for women contemplating late stage abortions. I think this is a great idea. In this case, if it was a case of cultural pressures (&/or an abusive husband) a psychological assessment may have picked this up and perhaps the woman could have been offered protection from her husband. She may not have accepted it, & preferred to have the abortion and stay with him, but at least the rights of both mother and child would have been considered.
    Thanks Funchu, I see where you are coming from for sure and also Sonja, I see what you mean as well. I do believe there is a middle ground but I would not class that as pro life OR pro choice. That is just my opinion, SassyMummy said it way better than me. I think saying I am okay with abortion until 7/12/14 weeks whatever, is just that, but it isn't pro choice. IF a woman wanted to have an abortion until birth then I would still believe in a womans right to choose what to do with her body, I know myself that is not something I would ever do and yes the thought makes me uncomfortable but I can't fathom forcing a woman to be pregnant either. For me a foetus doesn't have rights until they're born. I also agree with your second paragraph very much so, I think the doctor in the article failed when he flat out refused to refer them to someone else, instead of offering support and referring them to a physcologyst; though I must admit I am skeptical of most things he says given his very public anti abortion stance.

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  15. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Ok so I've never really thought about it in this level of detail. If you are truly pro choice does that mean any time up to birth is ok for a woman to have an abortion? I'm truly just trying t understand as the definition of pro choice is extremely broad and puts no time frame on the woman's right to choose. I definitely could never support an abortion at say 30 weeks. Does pro choice mean you have to? Because it does seem that way based n what I've read.
    It doesn't mean that you have to like it. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it. It just means that you acknowledge that your morals and ethics really should have no say in what another person does to their own body.

    (WARNING - Following is a fairly disturbing story about a late-term abortion decision)

    As I said, I've had times where my stance has been really difficult for me. A mentally-ill online friend made the decision to have her baby terminated by arranging for someone to violently attack her. She was approximately 10 weeks away from her due date. She was, as I said, severely mentally-ill, but she contacted me after she did this, confessed that's what happened, and told me that she was thinking of me the whole time, and my pro-choice stance on abortion, and how I've said that women ALWAYS should have the right to make these choices to themselves. She is a vocal anti-abortionist, so this was an act she would personally find abhorrent (again, before people quote and call her a monster - severe mental illness was at play).

    It made me feel sick. I lost sleep over the fact that my words had made it okay, in her mentally-ill state, to do that to herself to her baby. She deeply regretted it, but felt, at the time, that it was absolutely in her baby's best interests.

    So it's not an easy stance to take... it can make you feel physically ill and bother you endlessly, when your stance is used to fuel that kind of action.

    BUT... that's one woman. One mentally-ill woman who could have done the exact same thing regardless of any laws. Perhaps if it was legal, she would have done it in a safer, less violent way. Perhaps she wouldn't, and would have still done it that same way. But one woman's decision in a mentally-ill state doesn't mean anything to my stance, overall... because many other women would use that stance (that it's THEIR RIGHT to do whatever they damn well please to their own body and its contents) and NOT do anything like that. Many women would simply feel less trapped, less depressed, less "owned" by the government, if they can make the choice for themselves if ever the situation arises where they consider abortion. For WHATEVER reason.
    Last edited by SassyMummy; 29-04-2013 at 19:40.

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  17. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillynix View Post
    As a side note, if you're going to get worked up about abortions. Then direct yourself to a country like China, not Australia. Late term abortions are extremely common in China, for both male and female babies. Women have been known to be kidnapped, beaten, forced to sign forms they know nothing about, before being drugged before they have their pregnancies aborted. That happened as recently as this year, it also happened last year. These women were 7 months pregnant (despite their laws stating abortion is illegal after 6 months). They had 'over quota' pregnancies. With 13 million abortions said to occur every year in China, most of them are thought to be forced.

    So if you have an agenda, direct it at China. Not Australia
    I couldn't agree more. And not just foetuses but children, babies, people generally. Life is very cheap in some countries.

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