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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    I think by definition, it depends where you are looking up the word. It is not limited to believing in supernatural beings.

    I don't think believing in a supernatural being should be held in a higher regard either. But when I say religion will trump, this is what I think; If you are married to a Jew and have kids, Judaism will be part of that childs life and around their family. You can't escape a religion steeped in tradition and culture. Religion, baptisms etc. is not always about the actual religion, just about family and traditions. I mean, everyone here celebrates christmas, not because Jesus was born, but because it's a family and cultural/societal tradition. It always trumps a non belief, a belief in nothing, because if it didn't, no one would be celebrating christmas except christians.
    But you are equating physical traditions i.e. going to church, circumcision being a Jew, wearing a head dress as a Muslim, more important than intangible 'traditions". Someone here, was it Bec? who said she is the 4th or 5th generation of atheist. They don't have an atheist book aka bible, have a atheist holiday, but those intangible beliefs has been passed down. To me that is a tradition.

    I don't accept bc christianity has physical or tangible traditions that that means it should trump an atheist value. To me, a christian/atheist couple should be 50/50 in importance. Admittedly in the case of baptism you either do it or don't, so clearly there is going to be a loser for lack of a better word. But I don't feel either is better or more deserving of the decision making power.

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    As an athiest, I don't believe in nothing. Am I the only one who finds it ironic that religious people claim that you shouldn't mock someone's beliefs if they are religious, yet are more than happy to tell others what they do or do not believe?

    A belief is the thought that something is true. I believe lots of things are true - the Earth is round for example. I don't believe that if somebody was a member of the Flat Earth Society should have some right over what my child celebrates simply because they believe in a higher power.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Someone here, was it Bec? who said she is the 4th or 5th generation of atheist.
    Not me. Whilst my parents are atheist now they would have been bought up CofE. My siblings and I were raised without religion, not as atheists (as in to actively believe their is no god) but we were raised in the absence of religion or religious customs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    Not me. Whilst my parents are atheist now they would have been bought up CofE. My siblings and I were raised without religion, not as atheists (as in to actively believe their is no god) but we were raised in the absence of religion or religious customs.
    It was someone in this thread, too lazy to see who though lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    It was someone in this thread, too lazy to see who though lol
    I think it was one of my crushes - fearless leader?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    I was going by the dictionary definition.

    I understand what you're saying, and I agree that in many cases you have to make a decision about what you're 'buying into' if, as an atheist, you marry someone who follows a particular religion. If that religion is a strong part of their life then it would be as unacceptable for an atheist spouse to try to stop them from following it, as it would for the religious spouse to try to make the atheist follow their religion.

    In many cases that will mean that a relationship between two people who hold passionately opposing views simply can't work.

    I think it gets a bit more complicated, however, when you have someone who more vaguely or loosely defines themselves as following a religion (and this seems to happen more commonly in the Christian faith), but doesn't attend to any of the more ceremonious aspects of that faith (e.g., going to church), and for the most part it goes 'undetected'.

    In that instance, I can see how a couple could get together and fall in love, without perhaps realising that they hold conflicting beliefs or - if they do - that it will cause them trouble further down the line.

    I still disagree with your argument that a belief 'trumps' a non belief. Atheism is not (necessarily) a belief in nothing. It is, as discussed earlier, a belief that a supernatural being does not exist. However, as with religious beliefs, there may then be any number of values and morals that go along with that atheism, meaning that it isn't necessarily a 'neutral' stance.

    I agree that for some, religious ceremonies may be more about tradition/ family than the religious significance. However, that does not mean a non-religious partner should be forced to go along with it if it goes against their beliefs too. For example - the belief that a particular church is an immoral institution, with which they do not want their child associated.
    I don't think a relationship can work either under these circumstances.
    As for the vague part, I can only give my example, my dh never goes to church, we never discussed god or jesus, it doesn't interest him, it plays very little in our lives. BUT I knew he identified as catholic, I knew his family are catholic and his mum is religious and I knew when we got married, it'd most likely be in the church. Hence my kids then getting baptised. This doesnt need to be discussed to know who you're with. One of the first questions is usually, what nationality are you, where are you from, what religion are you. I don't know you girls and I already know the bare minimum on your religious views.
    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    But you are equating physical traditions i.e. going to church, circumcision being a Jew, wearing a head dress as a Muslim, more important than intangible 'traditions". Someone here, was it Bec? who said she is the 4th or 5th generation of atheist. They don't have an atheist book aka bible, have a atheist holiday, but those intangible beliefs has been passed down. To me that is a tradition.

    I don't accept bc christianity has physical or tangible traditions that that means it should trump an atheist value. To me, a christian/atheist couple should be 50/50 in importance. Admittedly in the case of baptism you either do it or don't, so clearly there is going to be a loser for lack of a better word. But I don't feel either is better or more deserving of the decision making power.
    What are Atheist traditions that get passed down 5 generations? I have never heard of Atheism having a set of traditions.

    Why does there have to be a loser? If the parent 'wins' by not having the child baptised, why should the religious parent miss out? By having the child baptised, I see that as a 50/50 compromise. My husband gets what he wants, and I still get to teach my kids my beliefs aswell. By baptising them I don't feel like the loser at all, I see it as a compromise. But if they weren't bapstised I certainly see how my husband would lose the opportunity to instill some of his culture to his children and his family miss out on having the baptism and the opportunity to be god parents etc. It means something to them, why would I deny them that? It doesn't hurt anyone, certainly not me or my children. And if I had a tradition I wanted, I would have done it also, like a naming ceremony (but I didn't)
    If you are fiercly opposed to baptisms and churches, then I could see there being a huge problem. This definately needs to be discussed before you have kids and I'm sure it would at some point just by having general conversations. Such as 'I'm a fifth generation Atheist, these are my families beliefs and traditions, I would never indoctrinate my children in any form of religion' If these are important values you won't compromise on, I'm sure it comes out in conversation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post

    What are Atheist traditions that get passed down 5 generations? I have never heard of Atheism having a set of traditions.
    Depends on what you consider to be a tradition. I would say atheist beliefs passed down over generations in itself is a tradition and it gets back to my earlier comments that traditions don't need to be tangible.

    tra·di·tion

    [COLOR=#878787 !important]Noun[/COLOR]
    1. The transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
    2. A long-established custom or belief that has been passed on in this way.

    Why does there have to be a loser? If the parent 'wins' by not having the child baptised, why should the religious parent miss out? By having the child baptised, I see that as a 50/50 compromise. My husband gets what he wants, and I still get to teach my kids my beliefs aswell. By baptising them I don't feel like the loser at all, I see it as a compromise. But if they weren't bapstised I certainly see how my husband would lose the opportunity to instill some of his culture to his children and his family miss out on having the baptism and the opportunity to be god parents etc. It means something to them, why would I deny them that? It doesn't hurt anyone, certainly not me or my children. And if I had a tradition I wanted, I would have done it also, like a naming ceremony (but I didn't)
    Well there is 2 choices, to either baptise or not baptise. So if you have one parent wanting to do it and the other doesn't one has to 'lose'. Each to their own but I don't believe a religious parent baptising against the wishes of their partner as 50/50. That is the former taking the decision off the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    Why does there have to be a loser? If the parent 'wins' by not having the child baptised, why should the religious parent miss out? By having the child baptised, I see that as a 50/50 compromise. My husband gets what he wants, and I still get to teach my kids my beliefs aswell. By baptising them I don't feel like the loser at all, I see it as a compromise. But if they weren't bapstised I certainly see how my husband would lose the opportunity to instill some of his culture to his children and his family miss out on having the baptism and the opportunity to be god parents etc. It means something to them, why would I deny them that? It doesn't hurt anyone, certainly not me or my children. And if I had a tradition I wanted, I would have done it also, like a naming ceremony (but I didn't)
    If you actively refuted the presence of a deity, did not want your child to take the first step of indoctrination into a religion where they have given no informed consent, did not want a permanent record that your child was part of a religion and/or believed that the religion was morally corrupt and partially responsible for significant suffering and perpetual poverty cycles then having the child baptised does not equate to a 50/50 compromise. The only win/win compromise would be to let the child decide when they are of a suitable age.

    Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it is above being challenged. We should never do things just because they have been done for generations previously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Depends on what you consider to be a tradition. I would say atheist beliefs passed down over generations in itself is a tradition and it gets back to my earlier comments that traditions don't need to be tangible.

    tra·di·tion

    [COLOR=#878787 !important]Noun[/COLOR]
    1. The transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.
    2. A long-established custom or belief that has been passed on in this way.



    Well there is 2 choices, to either baptise or not baptise. So if you have one parent wanting to do it and the other doesn't one has to 'lose'. Each to their own but I don't believe a religious parent baptising against the wishes of their partner as 50/50. That is the former taking the decision off the latter.
    I can't remember who said it. But I think I'd like to learn what it is.

    As for baptism. This is only one aspect and many things can be discussed and compromised on. For example, you can agree with a baptism, but not attending regular church, or you can agree on no baptism but attending a religious school etc etc. But not getting baptised and no religious teaching isn't really a 50/50 compromise. Neither is baptism and being heavily indoctrined in the church with the rejection of science. You can meet in the middle. I understand for some people this can't be achieved, but I think these particular people do choose their partners with these things in mind (ie. marrying within their religion)

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    I agree with compromising to me that doesn't mean a child is automatically baptised because one is religious, but it is discussed until the two parents can come to an arrangement.


 

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