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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl X View Post
    I guess it would be similar to a Catholic being 'baptised' into the Church of Satanism, or someone being inducted into a political party which they believe to be inherently bad for society. As an adult you can choose not to follow it, but to know that in the future there are records denoting you as a member of that faith/ political party/ whatever, can be quite galling if it's something you feel is immoral and not something with which you want to be associated.
    That's a very good point. Why is it ok to baptise a child into a religion but not ok to sign them up as a supporter of a political party? My parents have quite conservative political views. I would have been somewhere between rather befuddled to downright furious if they had signed me up to support the Liberal party as a baby.

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  3. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    Christmas and Easter were around long before Christianity. The church 'hijacked' the festivals to gain supporters.
    Hijacked it from whom? and where is the evidence this was done to gain support? I read this alot on the internet, but I don't think it holds much merit. Especially considering Constantine who made these holidays was infact a pagan who converted. Alot of early christians were pagans, so essentially they used the same holiday. It never stopped pagans continuing to celebrate the days as they pleased.


    But a religion must include a belief in some sort of supernatural being. The ceremonies are just ways to worship/recognise this supernatural being. Atheism does not recognise a supernatural being and therefore cannot and never will be a religion.

    [COLOR=#333333]From dictionary.com




    (My bold)
    How so? The comment you have made is a regular comment made against atheists but it does not stand up to scrutiny. Just because a person is challenging or criticising religion does not make them disrespectful. Granted it's a taboo subject but this makes no sense. Why should we not be allowed to challenge religion like we can challenge governments, social policy etc? I respect a person's right to their opinion, but I don't have to respect their opinion.
    Whatever the dictionary meaning is, to me, atheism is becoming a religion. A group, with a set of beliefs, rejecting all other beliefs as false, laying claim to things within the universe ie. science. Scientology to many isn't a religion, but I also view it that as a religion. The only thing atheism is missing is an institution wanting money.
    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    What you are listing isn't disrespectful, it's a difference of opinion. With respect I find it a bit telling that religious people think anyone disagreeing with their beliefs means they are trashing them. And it really reinforces my thoughts that religious people *can* be quite narcissistic about their beliefs.

    The fact I believe there is no god, heaven hell doesn't mean disrespect to you. Your beliefs are your own completely and while I don't agree, I respect your right to have them.



    No one is saying in this couple's case the child shouldn't be exposed to the religious parents beliefs. In fact I believe they should be. My child has been exposed and we have discussed lots about religion. But the automatic assumption that a non practicing person should automatically trump their atheist partner's wishes? nope don't agree.

    Honestly, I don't have the answer. I believe they both have an equal right as far as baptism. IMO it's wrong to baptise the child of an atheist, especially when non practicing, but I also get it's not right for an atheist to dictate either. So really, I don't know the answer.



    You are looking at this from a religious POV though. We argue it is harmful. Well, I'll back up. As I said, with my eldest we have had long discussions about religion. But we come at it from a 'some people believe this, others believe that' type of stance. My kids can believe whatever they wish and I certainly don't push atheism on them.

    So for me the discussion of religion isn't harmful. Telling children 'this is truth' imo is harmful.
    You said religious people are disrespectful. So now it's just a difference of opinion when the tables are turned?

    I am not looking at this religiously, I am not religious. I don't believe in anything but am open to everything and that's who I teach my children. I am not afraid of any religion, my children were baptised and learn about religion AND everything else I believe in including all things in the universe. I refuse to be identified as anything within a group and don't believe in putting my views in a box with a label.
    When someone says they're atheist, that to me means they don't believe in God. It doesn't tell me anything else. So I don't disrespect anyones views because I don't know what they are!! When you further tell me I believe in science and evolution etc etc. I respect that. I believe that too. This is why I would never identify as an atheist, it goes against my beliefs in anything organised with a label, that fiercly opposes other peoples beliefs. It can also foster extremism.
    I repsect all religions, cultures and beliefs. I wasn't afraid or fiercly against my children being baptised, and I'm not opposed for them to learn their families religions.

    I think when it does go against your beliefs and everything you believe in, you need to have these conversations with your partners. I've seen these things break up relationships and families. Religion and cultural divides is very important in relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    So you get to disregard the definition of religion? You are ok with redefining it rather than accepting what several atheists in this thread are telling you about themselves?? You *can't* have a religion without a deity of some kind, so atheism will never be a religion, sorry! Not one person here has said atheists want to be recognised as a group with set beliefs either- just that the core of atheism is tied in with science and belief in humanity. No atheist has tried to,lay claim to any of these things either. I think I've already explained this a few times in this thread. I feel,like you are deliberately ignoring information that has been presented to you because to acknowledge it would mean acknowledging that you aren't correct in your assumptions, which is a shame.

    Atheists are allowed to fiercely oppose religion and to blame, very correctly, religion for much of the harm in the world. That is fact and to be honest about the facts does not make a person disrespectful. Child sex abuse is rife in the Catholic Church- fact. Different factions of Muslims are at constant war and killing each other daily- fact. I could go,on, but you get the point I'm sure. There is a lot of harm that can be laid at the feet of religion and that's the truth- my pointing it out is not disrespectful, their perpetuation of these crimes is far more offensive IMO!

    On e other hand in this thread you have rejected atheists who have tried to explain their atheist tradition and culture, you have ignored repeated explanations of these things, you have said that atheism holds less value than religion and then claimed that atheism is a religion. It has been made clear to you that what you have said is not correct or respectful and your only defence thus far has been "it's my opinion". You claim to be open and to accept atheist views, but if you go back and read all you've said here, that's just not the case in how you've presented yourself.
    I think I've been ignoring anyone who has name called and been aggressive. You are coming across quite aggressive. I'm happy to discuss my views but there is no need for the aggression and the way you are posting. It's not necessary and I don't have time or the energy for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Bec~ View Post
    Christmas and Easter were around long before Christianity. The church 'hijacked' the festivals to gain supporters.



    But a religion must include a belief in some sort of supernatural being. The ceremonies are just ways to worship/recognise this supernatural being. Atheism does not recognise a supernatural being and therefore cannot and never will be a religion.

    [COLOR=#333333]From dictionary.com




    (My bold)
    How so? The comment you have made is a regular comment made against atheists but it does not stand up to scrutiny. Just because a person is challenging or criticising religion does not make them disrespectful. Granted it's a taboo subject but this makes no sense. Why should we not be allowed to challenge religion like we can challenge governments, social policy etc? I respect a person's right to their opinion, but I don't have to respect their opinion.
    Christmas is about the birth of Christ. They may have stolen the date, but it is about the birth of Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    Whatever the dictionary meaning is, to me, atheism is becoming a religion. A group, with a set of beliefs, rejecting all other beliefs as false, laying claim to things within the universe ie. science. Scientology to many isn't a religion, but I also view it that as a religion. The only thing atheism is missing is an institution wanting money.

    You said religious people are disrespectful. So now it's just a difference of opinion when the tables are turned?

    I am not looking at this religiously, I am not religious. I don't believe in anything but am open to everything and that's who I teach my children. I am not afraid of any religion, my children were baptised and learn about religion AND everything else I believe in including all things in the universe. I refuse to be identified as anything within a group and don't believe in putting my views in a box with a label.
    When someone says they're atheist, that to me means they don't believe in God. It doesn't tell me anything else. So I don't disrespect anyones views because I don't know what they are!! When you further tell me I believe in science and evolution etc etc. I respect that. I believe that too. This is why I would never identify as an atheist, it goes against my beliefs in anything organised with a label, that fiercly opposes other peoples beliefs. It can also foster extremism.
    I repsect all religions, cultures and beliefs. I wasn't afraid or fiercly against my children being baptised, and I'm not opposed for them to learn their families religions.

    I think when it does go against your beliefs and everything you believe in, you need to have these conversations with your partners. I've seen these things break up relationships and families. Religion and cultural divides is very important in relationships.
    No what I'm saying is for us, it's a difference of opinion. For some religious people (note I said some not all) any questioning causes claims of being persecuted then making comments that religious people are better, that they deserve more rights, that atheists in so many words are going to hell. I remember a thread a while ago that turned bad. The religious folk started a thread to pray for us I don't think it can get anymore passive aggressive or judgey than that.

    Atheism is not a religion! religion it itself means believing of a higher power. By definition we don't believe anything is there, period.

    Just bc you don't identify within a certain group and don't like labels doesn't change that many identify as atheist. For many it's just a short hand way of saying I don't believe full stop.

  7. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    Whatever the dictionary meaning is, to me, atheism is becoming a religion. A group, with a set of beliefs, rejecting all other beliefs as false, laying claim to things within the universe ie. science. Scientology to many isn't a religion, but I also view it that as a religion. The only thing atheism is missing is an institution wanting money.

    You said religious people are disrespectful. So now it's just a difference of opinion when the tables are turned?

    I am not looking at this religiously, I am not religious. I don't believe in anything but am open to everything and that's who I teach my children. I am not afraid of any religion, my children were baptised and learn about religion AND everything else I believe in including all things in the universe. I refuse to be identified as anything within a group and don't believe in putting my views in a box with a label.
    When someone says they're atheist, that to me means they don't believe in God. It doesn't tell me anything else. So I don't disrespect anyones views because I don't know what they are!! When you further tell me I believe in science and evolution etc etc. I respect that. I believe that too. This is why I would never identify as an atheist, it goes against my beliefs in anything organised with a label, that fiercly opposes other peoples beliefs. It can also foster extremism.
    I repsect all religions, cultures and beliefs. I wasn't afraid or fiercly against my children being baptised, and I'm not opposed for them to learn their families religions.

    I think when it does go against your beliefs and everything you believe in, you need to have these conversations with your partners. I've seen these things break up relationships and families. Religion and cultural divides is very important in relationships.
    Right. So you have redefined religion to suit your meaning, by your own admission. Surely you can see how disrespectful that is? The thing atheism is missing is a GOD.

    I can't say I know of any "atheist extremists" but much of what you've said is confusing. First off that atheism is *not* a set of beliefs with traditions etc, atheism is *nothing but* the non belief in god, then atheism is a *religion* and you refuse to be an atheist because it is *organised and has a label*.
    Whatever. It's like arguing with a wall! I'll leave it there.

  8. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    Whatever the dictionary meaning is, to me, atheism is becoming a religion. A group, with a set of beliefs, rejecting all other beliefs as false, laying claim to things within the universe ie. science. Scientology to many isn't a religion, but I also view it that as a religion. The only thing atheism is missing is an institution wanting money.
    So you believe you know better or different to a dictionary?

    Scientology is a religion btw.

    Scientology is a body of beliefs and related practices created by L. Ron Hubbard (1911–1986), starting in 1952, as a successor to his earlier self-help system, Dianetics.[5] Hubbard characterized Scientology as a religion, and in 1953 incorporated the Church of Scientology in Camden, New Jersey.[6][7]



    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    ... This is why I would never identify as an atheist, it goes against my beliefs in anything organised with a label, that fiercly opposes other peoples beliefs. It can also foster extremism.
    ...
    Atheism doesn't fiercely oppose anything, it simply takes the position that there is no deity/god/supernatual being that has any influence over life, the universe or cosmos. By default it them uses science to understand such matters.

    Extremism can indeed be detrimental to the well being of our existence but I've yet to hear of an extreme atheist carry out such activities in the name of atheism. Religious extremists on the other hand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    No what I'm saying is for us, it's a difference of opinion. For some religious people (note I said some not all) any questioning causes claims of being persecuted then making comments that religious people are better, that they deserve more rights, that atheists in so many words are going to hell. I remember a thread a while ago that turned bad. The religious folk started a thread to pray for us I don't think it can get anymore passive aggressive or judgey than that.

    Atheism is not a religion! religion it itself means believing of a higher power. By definition we don't believe anything is there, period.

    Just bc you don't identify within a certain group and don't like labels doesn't change that many identify as atheist. For many it's just a short hand way of saying I don't believe full stop.
    I haven't been getting that at all though. I also believe atheism is about not believing full stop, this is why I said it doesn't have much meaning or value. This is where people got offended and posted about their 'beliefs and culture and traditions' relating atheism. But Atheism isn't anything but a short hand way of saying you don't believe in anything. When someone says the believe in evolution and science because of their atheism, then that is adopting a belief system into Atheism and I don't agree with that. I'm not rejecting your personal beliefs about the universe, but claiming them as Atheist views. When you want to be recognised as an atheist and being atheist has a set of values and beliefs, then I will put that in the bag with all other religions and beliefs, regardless of dictionary definitions. This is how I view it.
    I have no doubt defining someone elses beliefs can frustrate them, but I can also see it goes both ways. You say a difference of opinion, and we are having a difference of opinion. If you are allowed to do that with Christianity, why can't I do that with Atheism? If you are frustrated by what I'm saying, then you can imagine why a christian would get upset when the same is done to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    Whatever the dictionary meaning is, to me, atheism is becoming a religion. A group, with a set of beliefs, rejecting all other beliefs as false, laying claim to things within the universe ie. science. Scientology to many isn't a religion, but I also view it that as a religion. The only thing atheism is missing is an institution wanting money.
    So... does this mean that vegetarianism is also a religion? And homosexuality too?

    I know you say that you have disregarded the dictionary definitions of religion and atheism, but surely you can then see that it may be difficult to debate/ converse with you about this topic, as you have redefined words to have their own personal meaning to you which is not commonly shared by anyone else.

    It would be a bit like me saying that I think religious people are all insane because (to me) religion means that you all wear purple hats. And then, when religious people pointed out that they didn't, me saying that I don't care how other people define it - that's MY definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    Christmas is about the birth of Christ. They may have stolen the date, but it is about the birth of Jesus.
    No.... For Christians it is, sure. But the date and many of the customs are pagan in origin, not Christian.


 

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