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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    Look, I'm not religious, but Christmas is about a baby.

    Isn't it slightly hypocritical to celebrate it?
    I never have until I met DP's family. I would have once he started school otherwise he would feel he misses out and I think that would be unfair if all of the children are talking about their presents/holidays etc. I'm not fussed if people think an athiest taking a break at the end of the year along with everyone else and getting their kids some treats is hypocritical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    I don't care about a christening. It was more important to my husband. God parents are supposed to teach their god children the catholic way, yet the church didn't mind that we had chosen a godmother who wasn't even catholic! Or that we were not married at the time.
    No. Godparents are there to support the parents in raising their children thru their faith.

    A non catholic can be a god parent but not a non Christian.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Modern day atheism isn't becoming a religion, since that requires a deity or god, nor am I laying claim to anything in its name. You misunderstood all I've posted!

    Evolution, science, reason etc are things I value in their own right and they are important to me because I am an atheist- I don't credit any of these things to a god, I credit them to humanity- that itself IS an atheist trait, if you like. If you don't believe in god, you can't credit these things to anyone else. Atheists don't believe in god- we believe in people. Atheism is more than a lack of belief in god- it encompasses anti-theism and many other aspects. Passing this information own through generations is a tradition for many families- by definition, this is what tradition is. You said atheism had no tradition, as an atheist, I'm telling you, you are incorrect. Maybe all atheists don't hold with this tradition, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or have value.

    Culture: Noun
    The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.

    Atheism, by its nature, rejects god/s in favour of humanity, so I dont see how you can reject atheistic culture.
    In your last bolded part, this is how I've always viewed Atheism to mean.
    But as a tradition or to have certain culture aspects, I don't know of any, perhaps within your family, your personal life, your personal beliefs about the world/universe, but this isn't common to a group, to do so means you are a religion. To me a religion is a set of beliefs within a group concerning things within the universe, not just a belief in a deity. So yes, wanting you to be recognised as a group with a set of beliefs and having traditions 'because' you are atheist I do see as a religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I think it's a shame you are so dismissive of atheism. The parent wanting the baptism isn't even practicing. It frustrates me how some people view religion are making them impervious to any questioning. They think christian means they can do and say what they want. That it's ok to marginalise minority groups, that somehow their beliefs are more important than those that don't believe. Yes the child would, and should be made aware of both parents beliefs. That doesn't automatically mean the religious parent trumps the atheist.

    As an atheist it's frustrating to feel like I constantly have to be respectful of those that are religious but it is rarely returned.
    I have found within this thread and many times; to be atheist is to be quite disprespectful of others beliefs. To fiercly oppose religion, God, to blame it for the wrong in the world, to see something like a baptism as dangerous, to lay claim to science, evolution, reasoning, humanism (which is like saying anyone who believes in God doesn't believe in evolution or has reasoning within the universe and I find that equally disrespectful) I have heard many times in real life an atheist call themselves highly intelligent because to believe in God no highly intelligent person could possibly.

    I think to receive respect you must give it. Again. If you have a set of beliefs whatever they may be, then your children will be exposed to both, if your family has traditions or is of a certain culture, then your children will gain that from you, I have never said don't or a certain religion is *more important*
    But to completely reject your partners religion or a baptism because you don't agree with it I believe is wrong. I don't think her partner or anyones would not allow you to teach your children your atheist views, so the same respect should be given in return. Otherwise, having children with someone of differing views where there is no acceptance or compromise needs to be re considered.

    When I say I'm open to most things, I am open to atheist views, if I had children with someone who has atheist views, I wouldn't reject their lack of belief in God and wouldn't stop them from teaching my children that. I married someone with beliefs I don't hold, my children were baptised because in my life it means I don't believe in anything but am open to everything. Baptising my children, teaching them about God religion and everything else in this world like science and evolution and teaching them to question hasn't harmed them and never will.

  4. #124
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    I think people can often resent baptism as it means their names are on that churches records as being a member of their faith.

    Not all churches provide means to have your name easily removed.

    It's an enduring tie to something that is essentially a lie for the individual, as it's not their faith or their church from their POV, but from the churches POV it is.

    As someone who's deeply interested in family history, I assume each of my ancestors religious beliefs based on their baptismal records and it's fair to say historically speaking they were considerably more accurate than they are now... I wouldn't want my great-great-grand children looking up documents to do with my personal history and saying 'Well Grandma BlissedOut was a Catholic'... when I'm not and never have been part of the Catholic church, aside from one single day when I was an infant.

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  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose&Aurelia View Post
    No. Godparents are there to support the parents in raising their children thru their faith.

    A non catholic can be a god parent but not a non Christian.
    Yes, through their faith and beliefs of the Catholic Church.

    You are more offended than the church

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    I have found within this thread and many times; to be atheist is to be quite disprespectful of others beliefs. To fiercly oppose religion, God, to blame it for the wrong in the world, to see something like a baptism as dangerous, to lay claim to science, evolution, reasoning, humanism (which is like saying anyone who believes in God doesn't believe in evolution or has reasoning within the universe and I find that equally disrespectful) I have heard many times in real life an atheist call themselves highly intelligent because to believe in God no highly intelligent person could possibly.
    What you are listing isn't disrespectful, it's a difference of opinion. With respect I find it a bit telling that religious people think anyone disagreeing with their beliefs means they are trashing them. And it really reinforces my thoughts that religious people *can* be quite narcissistic about their beliefs.

    The fact I believe there is no god, heaven hell doesn't mean disrespect to you. Your beliefs are your own completely and while I don't agree, I respect your right to have them.

    I think to receive respect you must give it. Again. If you have a set of beliefs whatever they may be, then your children will be exposed to both, if your family has traditions or is of a certain culture, then your children will gain that from you, I have never said don't or a certain religion is *more important*
    But to completely reject your partners religion or a baptism because you don't agree with it I believe is wrong. I don't think her partner or anyones would not allow you to teach your children your atheist views, so the same respect should be given in return. Otherwise, having children with someone of differing views where there is no acceptance or compromise needs to be re considered.
    No one is saying in this couple's case the child shouldn't be exposed to the religious parents beliefs. In fact I believe they should be. My child has been exposed and we have discussed lots about religion. But the automatic assumption that a non practicing person should automatically trump their atheist partner's wishes? nope don't agree.

    Honestly, I don't have the answer. I believe they both have an equal right as far as baptism. IMO it's wrong to baptise the child of an atheist, especially when non practicing, but I also get it's not right for an atheist to dictate either. So really, I don't know the answer.

    Baptising my children, teaching them about God religion and everything else in this world like science and evolution and teaching them to question hasn't harmed them and never will.
    You are looking at this from a religious POV though. We argue it is harmful. Well, I'll back up. As I said, with my eldest we have had long discussions about religion. But we come at it from a 'some people believe this, others believe that' type of stance. My kids can believe whatever they wish and I certainly don't push atheism on them.

    So for me the discussion of religion isn't harmful. Telling children 'this is truth' imo is harmful.

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    Look, I'm not religious, but Christmas is about a baby.
    Christmas and Easter were around long before Christianity. The church 'hijacked' the festivals to gain supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    In your last bolded part, this is how I've always viewed Atheism to mean.
    But as a tradition or to have certain culture aspects, I don't know of any, perhaps within your family, your personal life, your personal beliefs about the world/universe, but this isn't common to a group, to do so means you are a religion. To me a religion is a set of beliefs within a group concerning things within the universe, not just a belief in a deity. So yes, wanting you to be recognised as a group with a set of beliefs and having traditions 'because' you are atheist I do see as a religion.
    But a religion must include a belief in some sort of supernatural being. The ceremonies are just ways to worship/recognise this supernatural being. Atheism does not recognise a supernatural being and therefore cannot and never will be a religion.

    From dictionary.com
    a
    set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    I have found within this thread and many times; to be atheist is to be quite disprespectful of others beliefs. To fiercly oppose religion, God, to blame it for the wrong in the world, to see something like a baptism as dangerous, to lay claim to science, evolution, reasoning, humanism (which is like saying anyone who believes in God doesn't believe in evolution or has reasoning within the universe and I find that equally disrespectful) I have heard many times in real life an atheist call themselves highly intelligent because to believe in God no highly intelligent person could possibly.
    (My bold)
    How so? The comment you have made is a regular comment made against atheists but it does not stand up to scrutiny. Just because a person is challenging or criticising religion does not make them disrespectful. Granted it's a taboo subject but this makes no sense. Why should we not be allowed to challenge religion like we can challenge governments, social policy etc? I respect a person's right to their opinion, but I don't have to respect their opinion.

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  10. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olin View Post
    In your last bolded part, this is how I've always viewed Atheism to mean.
    But as a tradition or to have certain culture aspects, I don't know of any, perhaps within your family, your personal life, your personal beliefs about the world/universe, but this isn't common to a group, to do so means you are a religion. To me a religion is a set of beliefs within a group concerning things within the universe, not just a belief in a deity. So yes, wanting you to be recognised as a group with a set of beliefs and having traditions 'because' you are atheist I do see as a religion.


    I have found within this thread and many times; to be atheist is to be quite disprespectful of others beliefs. To fiercly oppose religion, God, to blame it for the wrong in the world, to see something like a baptism as dangerous, to lay claim to science, evolution, reasoning, humanism (which is like saying anyone who believes in God doesn't believe in evolution or has reasoning within the universe and I find that equally disrespectful) I have heard many times in real life an atheist call themselves highly intelligent because to believe in God no highly intelligent person could possibly.

    I think to receive respect you must give it. Again. If you have a set of beliefs whatever they may be, then your children will be exposed to both, if your family has traditions or is of a certain culture, then your children will gain that from you, I have never said don't or a certain religion is *more important*
    But to completely reject your partners religion or a baptism because you don't agree with it I believe is wrong. I don't think her partner or anyones would not allow you to teach your children your atheist views, so the same respect should be given in return. Otherwise, having children with someone of differing views where there is no acceptance or compromise needs to be re considered.

    When I say I'm open to most things, I am open to atheist views, if I had children with someone who has atheist views, I wouldn't reject their lack of belief in God and wouldn't stop them from teaching my children that. I married someone with beliefs I don't hold, my children were baptised because in my life it means I don't believe in anything but am open to everything. Baptising my children, teaching them about God religion and everything else in this world like science and evolution and teaching them to question hasn't harmed them and never will.
    So you get to disregard the definition of religion? You are ok with redefining it rather than accepting what several atheists in this thread are telling you about themselves?? You *can't* have a religion without a deity of some kind, so atheism will never be a religion, sorry! Not one person here has said atheists want to be recognised as a group with set beliefs either- just that the core of atheism is tied in with science and belief in humanity. No atheist has tried to,lay claim to any of these things either. I think I've already explained this a few times in this thread. I feel,like you are deliberately ignoring information that has been presented to you because to acknowledge it would mean acknowledging that you aren't correct in your assumptions, which is a shame.

    Atheists are allowed to fiercely oppose religion and to blame, very correctly, religion for much of the harm in the world. That is fact and to be honest about the facts does not make a person disrespectful. Child sex abuse is rife in the Catholic Church- fact. Different factions of Muslims are at constant war and killing each other daily- fact. I could go,on, but you get the point I'm sure. There is a lot of harm that can be laid at the feet of religion and that's the truth- my pointing it out is not disrespectful, their perpetuation of these crimes is far more offensive IMO!

    On e other hand in this thread you have rejected atheists who have tried to explain their atheist tradition and culture, you have ignored repeated explanations of these things, you have said that atheism holds less value than religion and then claimed that atheism is a religion. It has been made clear to you that what you have said is not correct or respectful and your only defence thus far has been "it's my opinion". You claim to be open and to accept atheist views, but if you go back and read all you've said here, that's just not the case in how you've presented yourself.

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    Atheism is not a religion

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlissedOut View Post
    I think people can often resent baptism as it means their names are on that churches records as being a member of their faith.

    Not all churches provide means to have your name easily removed.

    It's an enduring tie to something that is essentially a lie for the individual, as it's not their faith or their church from their POV, but from the churches POV it is.

    As someone who's deeply interested in family history, I assume each of my ancestors religious beliefs based on their baptismal records and it's fair to say historically speaking they were considerably more accurate than they are now... I wouldn't want my great-great-grand children looking up documents to do with my personal history and saying 'Well Grandma BlissedOut was a Catholic'... when I'm not and never have been part of the Catholic church, aside from one single day when I was an infant.
    Yes, this is exactly how my DH feels about the fact that he was baptised.

    And it's not just that he doesn't believe in Catholicism, but that he is morally opposed to it too.

    I guess it would be similar to a Catholic being 'baptised' into the Church of Satanism, or someone being inducted into a political party which they believe to be inherently bad for society. As an adult you can choose not to follow it, but to know that in the future there are records denoting you as a member of that faith/ political party/ whatever, can be quite galling if it's something you feel is immoral and not something with which you want to be associated.


 

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