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  1. #361
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    Well do you know what father. I hope you are right. I really, really do. But what if you aren't?

    My thoughts on this are a) we can go about our business and not change anything and either we mess the plant up quickly, or we don't

    b) or we can make a change, some huge changes even, and start treating our earth with a bit of respect, if in the future nothing happens. Then so be it, big deal. But if it does happen, then maybe we will have done something to curb the damage.

    If it is all about costs, then tell me, why have electricity bills gone up drastically before the carbon tax was even implemented. If this is all about money - which it seems to be, then why aren't you jumping up and down about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    Have you not read a word I have said? No one has said that humans have no impact, therefore, no one would need to prove such. I have said the exact opposite on many occasions.

    Climate sensitivity, despite being assumed without evidence in all the models, cannot be replicated or proven.

    What can be replicated over and over, however, is what the thermometers are actually indicating. Are they are indicating that the climate sensitivity is nowhere near what the models are suggesting.

    Who is the real 'denier'? Those that ignore that the models are blatantly wrong? Those that ignore that the temperature increase has paused for over a decade?

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  3. #362
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    I'm going to post this again for those that come across this thread. Skeptical Science's 'escalator' explaining the temperatures and how skeptics see it.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=47

    We all already know that father does not believe climate change is happening at the rate scientists say it is and that when the temps and sea levels do rise 'we can just adapt' (although how he anticipates getting 1000's of species of flora and fauna to adapt is beyond me). The impression I get is that climate change is not an issue father thinks money should be wasted on and he will probably continue to feel that way unless climate change effects him personally.

    Me personally, I'd rather not take the risk and would rather help take and support whatever steps necessary to make sure many species can be seen in their natural habitats rather than just the zoo.

    Like the vaccination argument, this all comes down to if you believe a massive majority of scientists around the world or if you believe the minority of skeptics and some conspiracy theorists.

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  5. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father View Post
    'An email'. I think your understanding of the contents of the climategate emails needs some expansion. Would you like me to provide some examples?
    Why don't you stop being condescending and actually provide your examples.

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  7. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Well do you know what father. I hope you are right. I really, really do. But what if you aren't?

    My thoughts on this are a) we can go about our business and not change anything and either we mess the plant up quickly, or we don't

    b) or we can make a change, some huge changes even, and start treating our earth with a bit of respect, if in the future nothing happens. Then so be it, big deal. But if it does happen, then maybe we will have done something to curb the damage.
    Hear hear Beebs!!

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  9. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    Why don't you stop being condescending and actually provide your examples.
    Well there are a heap. I would like to start with this graphic, which chronologically shows the relevance and meaning behind these emails. It is very detailed. I hope that you give it some time to look at the history of 'climate science'.
    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/clima...ine_banner.gif

  10. #366
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    Sorry. I should have also included a link for the references contained in the flowchart linked above.
    The references can be found at the end of this document.
    http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/clima..._full_size.pdf

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    Great Reuters article on Huffington Post's twitter today about the most comprehensive global warming study. I'm sure Father will find a graph that he cherry picked to discount the study, or an article from a known skeptic website. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...usaolp00000003

    There's this article about how the US has warmed over the years:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...usaolp00000003


    As stated in a previous post, Father does acknowledge global warming but does not think its happening at the rate predicted and that 'we can just adapt.'

    I am posting this for those that may come across this thread.

    Edit: added Huffpost US article.
    Last edited by Kirst33; 23-04-2013 at 08:38.

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  13. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    Great Reuters article on Huffington Post's twitter today about the most comprehensive global warming study. I'm sure Father will find a graph that he cherry picked to discount the study, or an article from a known skeptic website.
    Please don't assume how I will respond. That study actually looks pretty good. It has taken a different approach, which is refreshing, and it also recognises some facts that the 'global warming' community tend to ignore.

    Eg.

    We also found that temperatures in some regions were higher in the past then they were during the late 20th century and that, the longer the individual site record, the more likely it was to show prior warm intervals, which is consistent with the long-term cooling trend. In Europe, for example, the average temperature between AD 21 and 80 was warmer than during AD 1971-2000. But temperatures did not fluctuate uniformly among all regions at multi-decadal to centennial scales. For example, the transition to colder regional climates between AD 1200 and 1500 is evident earlier in the Arctic, Europe and Asia than in North America or the Southern Hemisphere.
    It also has a very different way of showing temperature changes rather than the standard time vs temp graph. This image is from the paper.

    dotkaufman-popup.jpg

    This does show some pretty big temperature fluctuations. As would be expected in the complicated climatic system that we have.
    But in my opinion, tree rings and pollen really don't compare to actual thermometers when measuring the temperature. Especially when you are talking about fractions of a degree.

    Thanks for the alert to the new study Kirst.
    But looking at the past does not change the fact that the current models (the ones that government policy is based upon) are fatally flawed.

    We have had no significant warming over the last 16 years despite the CO2 concentration increasing over the same period. No climate model shows such a pause.

  14. #369
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    Kaufman:

    The pre-industrial trend was likely caused by natural factors that continued to operate through the 20th century, making 20th century warming more difficult to explain if not for the likely impact of increased greenhouse gasses
    I think he has let himself down a little here. The sun was quite unusual during the 20th century

    From Solanki et al 2004:

    According to our reconstruction, the level of solar activity during the past 70 years is exceptional, and the previous period of equally high activity occurred more than 8,000 years ago.
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/...lanki2004.html

    Hmmmm.

    Solar cycle 24 will be interesting.

  15. #370
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    It's you're opinion that only temperatures matter but MANY scientists are telling you that it ALL matters. You can cherry pick out of the reports all you want but you always seem to ignore the conclusion that the scientists are drawing from they're vast array of research and knowledge. Warming is happening and it is a problem that we should be worried about. Picking a paragraph out of their report does not change their conclusion.

    I'm not looking to change your mind, you obviously feel the environment is not a worthy cause and I've given up on trying to make you see common sense. My frustration lies with that you are trying to convince others that it is not a cause, which to me is dangerous because every person matters in trying to help save the environment from problems we cause. I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to deter people from a worthy cause? If you don't believe it, fine, frustrating but fine. But why does it worry you so much that others believe it to be true when their actions can only lead to good for the Earth? If your problem is the carbon tax, argue the problems in the tax.

    You've continually been condescending throughout this thread so I don't think one could blame me for assuming your response (which you still did, you cherry/picked through the report and stated you think only temperature matters and your constant false assumption that warming stopped 16 years ago). You are not a scientist or have researched the environment. Reading things online does not make you an expert. It doesn't make me an expert either, which is why I trust the conclusions scientists around the world are drawing. Your comment that 'we can just adapt' or 'why would environmentalists have a problem with nuclear energy' show that you are far from an expert in climate science. I have no doubt that humans can adapt to global warming, but I, unlike you, care about every other species ability to adapt. We are ruining the Earth and I see no problem with trying to mend problems we have caused, whether the predictions are right or wrong we need to start showing some respect to the environment.

    This article explains how climate models work and how scientists determined global warming is man made, also how their predictions are normally right: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...usaolp00000003

    This is an article about China's air quality, don't know about you but I'm happy to live in a country that wants to combat climate change: http://t.co/9oD8y2jBVX

    And finally, how a climate change denier turned into a believer: http://www.wunderground.com/earth-da...climate-change

    It's Earth Day in the states so loads to read!
    Last edited by Kirst33; 23-04-2013 at 20:40.

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