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    Last edited by Cinderella82; 10-08-2013 at 22:10.

  2. #32
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    Last edited by Cinderella82; 10-08-2013 at 22:09.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitrusRain View Post
    And I guess this is why I don't think religion has a place in schools at all. It's not promoting acceptance of all faiths, just that the rest are wrong.

    If people want their kids to grow up In a certain faith then by all means take them to church and practise religion at home but please keep it out of public schools.

    FWIW I'm an ex-teacher and have seen exactly what they preach in these classes at 3 different schools. As an agnostic I was horrified.
    Indeed - in 'divinity' at my school they taught the bible as fact, not as concept but with the absolute assumption that everything in it is true.

    Sure, discuss the various religious faiths in a general studies subject - religion is a powerful force in the world and warrants discussion, but to teach a specific religion as fact, to young (impressionable) children is unacceptable in my book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    I completely understand your annoyance, I am a Christian and would hate if I felt like my child was having another religion forced upon them, and it would be so much better if we could all be more respectful of others beliefs. Especially in a public school, religion shouldn't be taught.

    can I just say though, I completely understand and respect others beliefs, whether they are athiest, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever they may be. But I personally am a Christian and I 100% believe in god. So even though I agree your child should not have Christian beliefs pushed upon them at a public school, I have seen many references to Christian beliefs as rubbish, Mumbo jumbo, brainwashing, fairy tales, lies, utter cr@p, etc. please do not refer to my beliefs this way, I find it very offensive. FAIR ENOUGH you do not want your child subjected to it at school, which I agree with. And it is disrespecting your beliefs. That isn't ok. But please do not disrespect MY beliefs in return. I wish we could all just learn to respect each others beliefs.
    I used the mumbo jumbo word and I'm sorry if you were offended but I'm not sorry for using it. It's what I believe and as you've said I'm entitled to my belief (and you yours). Actually I think this was quite a polite way of saying it. I maybe could've used a more politically correct word but that wouldn't have conveyed my meaning, I most certainly could've used more offensive ones but didn't. I'm not trying to make this into a big debate and don't want to go on about it but I do think that saying you are offended by someone else's beliefs but that then saying that everyone's entitled to them is sort of trying to have it both ways, no? Let's just agree to disagree and not get offended by other peoples views.

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    Last edited by Cinderella82; 10-08-2013 at 22:08.

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    One can respect the believer without respecting their beliefs. Christopher Hitchens was a great exemplar of this, having been good friends with a number of prominent Christians yet excoriating their primitive superstitions in no uncertain terms.

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    Referring to another's beliefs as 'Mumbo Jumbo' is no better than a Christian referring to your beliefs as 'Heathen Arrogance'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regina Phalange View Post
    i guess what I'm saying is, as a Christian, I can say 'I am a Christian and I believe in god'. Not offensive. Respectful. Or I could say 'I am a Christian, and unless you are too and repent of your sins and change your beliefs, you are going to hell. (Not saying that this is what I believe, just an example of how I know some behave). Not respectful. Offensive.

    you can say 'I do not believe in god, and I do not want my child learning about Christian beliefs/ being taught that they are fact/ being subjected to re/ etc. not offensive. Respectful. You can say 'Christianity is a pile of cr@p and absolute rubbish and people who believe in god are less intelligent than us atheists (yes, someone on bh has actually said this before!) not respectful. Offensive.

    Surely you can see the difference? I am not offended in any way by others beliefs. I am offended when people put down my beliefs by calling them crap, garbage, etc. of course you have every right to express and say whatever you want, no one has the right to stop you saying that Christianity is crap and rubbish, etc. I guess again, I am just sayin that it is really disappointing that we all cannot express our views a bit more politely & respect what one another believes.
    I guess where we differ is that if you were to say "I am a Christian, and unless you are too and repent of your sins and change your beliefs, you are going to hell" I wouldn't be offended in the slightest. I'm totally fine with you expressing this belief. I am comfortable enough in my atheism that a religious person telling me what their religious beliefs condemn me to means little, if anything, to me. It's not my belief, so I don't really care, you know? I have many friends who are religious, they know my views, I know theirs, we can discuss it, agree to disagree and move on. I guess this is because they are comfortable enough in their religion that my views and any science I throw at them doesn't shake their belief system.

    Just wanted to make one other small point- you said you don't believe raising children within a religion is indoctrination. The bible is considered to be doctrine, and if you teach this to a child as fact, ie- to accept it without criticism, then by definition, you are actually indoctrinating them. If you are saying instead "this is what I believe, this is what others believe, what do you think? Can you see it from another perspective? " then you are teaching them to make their own decisions about it, and not indoctrinating. Then comes the whole debate about what age people are considered mature enough to understand and decide etc etc etc

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    ... and I'm not offended by you using the term, but it has made me think less of you, as I would think less of someone who was so condescending about anyone elses religious beliefs.

    So that's something to consider when you do 'express your views'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlissedOut View Post
    Referring to another's beliefs as 'Mumbo Jumbo' is no better than a Christian referring to your beliefs as 'Heathen Arrogance'.
    Let's examine this by defining "mumbo jumbo"
    The free dictionary gives the following definition:

    mum·bo jum·bo or mum·bo-jum·bo (mmb-jmb)n. pl. mum·bo jum·bos or mum·bo-jum·bos 1. Unintelligible or incomprehensible language; gibberish.

    2. Language or ritualistic activity intended to confuse.

    3. A complicated or obscure ritual.

    4. An object believed to have supernatural powers; a fetish.



    Using any of these definitions there is a strong argument that each could be applied to someone believing Christianity (or any other religion) is mumbo jumbo. (The only exception might be the first one if we only use the example of language and the fourth one regarding fetishes.)

    1. Major religions, their holy books and tenets are full of inconsistencies, hypocrisies and flawed logic.
    2. To be honest I"m unfamiliar with many religious rituals. Perhaps the Christian belief of turning wine and wafers literally into blood and flesh is an example?
    3. Christianity/Judaism an Islam most definitely have complicated rituals!
    4. Deities are supposed to have supernatural powers.

    I'm not saying this to be argumentative. I am posting this to break down what someone is saying to prove that there is validity in the statement. I get that no all will agree with me and I'm not bothered by that - my point is that if you deconstruct the statement it is based on fact - why are people so offended by facts? To be really blunt I don't care if someone's offended by my atheistic beliefs/posts/stance - that's their problem. I'm not attacking or belittling anyone - merely pointing out facts.

    Heathen Arrogance
    Again using the free dictionary
    Heathen is defined as:
    1. Offensive a. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

    b. Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.



    Yup, I'd agree with those statements but I'm not offended because it's true regardless if it is supposed to be offensive.

    Arrogance is defined as:
    ar·ro·gance (r-gns)n. The state or quality of being arrogant; overbearing pride.

    Errr, nope. How does stating facts in a relevant discussion make me arrogant?

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