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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    And there has been people in this thread saying they should be punished.
    Please don't misrepresent people. The one mention of "punishment" had nothing to do with religious circ, but was a suggestion by a single poster about the death which is the actual subject of this thread. I replied to that post by saying that punishment only applies in cases of negligence.

    On the broader question, religious circumcision involves an irreconcilable clash of rights: the right of parents to practice their religion versus the right of children to bodily integrity. We resolve this contradiction differently for boys and girls. That's not rational but it's the way it is, and likely to remain for the foreseeable future.

    On the religious basis of female circumcision: this is found in the haddith not the Quran, which does not even mention male circumcision. The fact is that genital cutting is a tribal tradition of Western Semitic peoples predating the Abrahamic religions and its real origins have nothing to do with God's will or immortal souls.

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    I agree I have been following this topic for a while and don't find it attacking anyone. Pretty tame considering when it started I thought "whoa this one is going to get interesting"

    I am not pro or against. I didn't do Ds as i didn't see the point and really didn't want to cause any pain to my bub unless it was really required. I figured if he had problems with infections or anything we can look at it when he is older.

    I think this is a terrible tragedy and I don't believe anyone is saying anything the parents aren't saying to themselves.

    I hope if anything this may open eyes to doctors and parents to test for anything that may make a circ riskier before going ahead with the procedure.

    I don't believe in exploiting a families grief to suit you agenda but I do think things need to be questioned instead of just accepting "oh it's religion lets not go there" I agree photos are over the top - it should have been kept anonymous.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Mm. Sorry. But if someone was going around saying I'm mutilating my children then that is exactly how I would take it. Wouldn't you? And there has been people in this thread saying they should be punished.
    I never read ‘‘I understand why you do it, I just don't agree. And here is why.‘‘ instead its mutilation, or changing someone who is already perfect, implying they make their children imperfect. Etc etc. As I said, I'm neither for nor against it. I just understand it and why it's done. And as I also said, if people really want others to stop circumsizing their children, I believe understanding would go a long way.
    Which means understanding you want someone to go directly against Gods instruction and potentially put their childrens immortal soul in jeopardy. Understanding that you want thousands and thouands of years of instrucrion to go by the wayside. Understanding doesn't equate to agreeance, but it might help people to get their arguments heard, rather than people feeling attacked.

    And as for the female version of circing, I've not read the Qua‘ran(sp), but once I'm done with the Bible I will, but I think thats a cultural thing more than religious and culture is far easier to change than religion.

    Sent from my HUAWEI-U8850 using BubHub
    Again, no one has used the word "mutilate" so can you please stop mis-representing. Using the term "mutilate" to describe circ'ing is at the very least worthy of an edit by a mod if not infraction - and rightly so.

    In regard to female circ'ing - I've yet to find the exact part of the section of Koran that mentions this. I have watched a You Tube clip of an Iman saying that the Koran only sanction a tiny cut of the clitorous, nothing more. However, there are many Imans who do support FGM from it's least intrusive forms right up to the most intrusive forms. My understanding is that whilst the Koran or the Haddith don't explicitly require female circ, they do insist that a woman is a virgin for her husband and circ'ing a female is used as proof of virginity. Other forms are used as a measure of trying to suppress a female's sexual urges to ensure she stays faithful to her husband. Female circ'ing is not exclusive to Muslims though, it pre-dates Islam and is undertaken by some Christian Africans as well. When a religion is formed it will take some cultural practices and formalise them or make them holey, which is what I believe has been the case with FGM.

    Importantly, NOT all Muslims carry out, condone or approve of female circ'ing/FGM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Sigh. I can even understand the marrying off people in an arranged marriage. But I think the levels of disrespect for an entire culture and religion shown in these threads are horrible.
    Sigh back atcha. I was pointing out the flawed logic, not commenting on specific practices.

    We know that many inhumane things have been done in the name of religion, to suggest that everyone must respect them because they are "religious" is unreasonable.
    Last edited by lambjam; 12-03-2013 at 08:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    We know that many inhumane things have been done in the name of religion, to suggest that everyone must respect them because they are "religious" is unreasonable.
    Fortunately, this is not the United States, and our rules of conversation about religion are a little more robust. But no sane politician is going to take on the international Jewish community by suggesting we ban brit milah for 8-day-old infants. If they needed any reminder of what sort of sh*t-storm would ensue, the circus last year in Germany provided plenty of lessons, including accusations of a second Holocaust!

    And one can hardly cede this "right" to Jews and deny it to the more numerous Muslim community. So we are stuck with religious circumcision of male children, and it is likely they will form the majority of procedures by the end of the decade as secular circumcision continues to wither away.

  7. #86
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    I don't recall suggesting we take away the right for Jews to circumcise. Just debating the notion that all religious customs are beyond criticism and inherently deserve respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I don't recall suggesting we take away the right for Jews to circumcise. Just debating the notion that all religious customs are beyond criticism and inherently deserve respect.
    I think circumcision without a specific medical recommendation should be banned. And that includes for religious reasons. I find it absurd that people cut a baby simple because an old fart thousands of years ago said it was a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I think circumcision without a specific medical recommendation should be banned. And that includes for religious reasons. I find it absurd that people cut a baby simple because an old fart thousands of years ago said it was a good idea.
    Just quietly, I completely agree! But shh, I'm busy all afternoon and don't have time to take up the debate

    I've used a small, grey font so that nobody sees...
    Last edited by lambjam; 12-03-2013 at 13:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    Just quietly, I completely agree! But shh, I'm busy all afternoon and don't have time to take up the debate

    I've used a small, grey font so that nobody sees...
    Except anyone on an iphone who sees it in a normal size, normal colour font

    I also agree with VP

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  15. #90
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    SpecialPatrolGroup is offline T-rex is cranky until she gets her coffee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shelle65 View Post
    Except anyone on an iphone who sees it in a normal size, normal colour font

    I also agree with VP
    Yep, same on my phone

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