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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovemyfam View Post
    Religion should not protect people from facing the law when their baby dies from something they have done to them, same with the baby that got an STD from his circ these parents and doctors should be on trial and given a punishment, this boy paid with his life. Why? Its unnecessary
    Sorry, I deleted the rest because this is the only part I was going to say something about and the rest just took up a lot of my page.

    Religious is as necessary to some as immunisation is to others. It's as necessary to some as breathing is, as eating is, as being a vegan/vegetarian is. It's as necessary to some people as sleeping.

    Some people believe all of these things to be unnecessary. Some people don't. Whether you believe it's necessary or not is completely irrelevant, I'm afraid.
    I'll be the first one to admit I don't understand circumcision for aesthetic reasons, but I DO understand it for religious ones.
    The parents are doing what they believe is right to protect their son from Gods wrath and displeasure, so protecting his immortal soul. Whether YOU believe in these things has absolutely no bearing on them or their family what-so-ever. For some, his immortal soul is actually more important than his physical one. Physical ones will end, they will die and expire. Then they will either be burnt or they will be put into the ground and be eaten by worms and rot.
    And after then is where you are judged by God, on whether you go to heaven or hell or not. And as the Jews follow the Old Testament, theirs is a wrathful, fire and brimstoney God, so that fear is real and tangible.

    As I said, the physical part of raising a child is just a small part of their health and well being, and these parents were doing what they believed was the right thing to do to preserve their son in the eyes of God. The judgement of men is a negligible one when it comes up against that.

  2. #52
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    c-section is a decision by a mother in regard to her own body and birth process. Infant circumcision is a decision by somebody else about the genitals of an unconsenting child. I have no objection to adults (male or female) choosing circumcision for themselves for any reason.

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    You can't "punish" people for engaging in a lawful activity unless they are proved to have acted negligently.

    So not making sure there is nothing wrong with a child before cutting off a part of his body isnt negligent? Shouldnt we be making sure that every child that is going to have a part of his penis removed is in peak health? Maybe we just ban it then no problems will arise

  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovemyfam View Post
    So not making sure there is nothing wrong with a child before cutting off a part of his body isnt negligent?
    I have no idea whether the medical personnel were negligent in this case; that will be for the coroner to decide. My point was that as the law stands in the US and Australia, circumcising a male infant is legal if "competently performed" and informed consent has been obtained from at least one parent.

    I am no fan of legal prohibitions. Ultimately, infant circumcision is withering away because parents in the vast majority don't believe it is necessary or desirable. I am happy (sometimes at length ) to argue the case against, but I don't believe in demonising individuals who are acting legally and in good faith in what they believe is in the best interest of their children. That's not how you win hearts and minds.

  6. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    I'm curious if those that feel so strongly against circumcisions also have the same feelings towards people who choose an elective c-section? Meaning a c-section for any reason other than medical or emergency (ie a fear of labor and birth, convenience, etc)? If something went wrong in that procedure and something happened to the mother or baby would you have the same feelings of those who made the decision needing to be punished? Do you also feel that c-sections that aren't medically necessary should be banned?

    I am not for or against circumcision as I feel people make choices in their lives for a variety of reasons and it is not my business to judge them. Likewise for an elective c-section. Just curious.
    That's a very good post!
    Many women chose to have a caesarian, major surgery for non medical reasons. If a baby had died as a result of having a cs would such a big deal been made? I think not!

    The fact that circumcision is such a contraversal issue is the reason why such a hoo hah has been made. Yes it's sad but these cases are very rare, there is a small risk of something going wrong as there are risks with everything we do.

    Circumcision is a belief for some and not for others and people should not be critisised for their choices because it is not the choice of another persons.

    On this occassion it had nothing to do with the procedure itself, the child had a bleeding disorder. When a child is circumcised blood loss is minimal and easily controlled in a healthy baby! This baby obviously had a severe form of haemaphilia which is hereditary in males so there must have been some family history that the parents surely would have been aware off and if that is the case they should have had baby checked before having the procedure done.

  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Religious is as necessary to some as immunisation is to others. It's as necessary to some as breathing is, as eating is, as being a vegan/vegetarian is. It's as necessary to some people as sleeping.

    Some people believe all of these things to be unnecessary. Some people don't. Whether you believe it's necessary or not is completely irrelevant, I'm afraid.
    I'll be the first one to admit I don't understand circumcision for aesthetic reasons, but I DO understand it for religious ones.
    The parents are doing what they believe is right to protect their son from Gods wrath and displeasure, so protecting his immortal soul. Whether YOU believe in these things has absolutely no bearing on them or their family what-so-ever. For some, his immortal soul is actually more important than his physical one. Physical ones will end, they will die and expire. Then they will either be burnt or they will be put into the ground and be eaten by worms and rot.
    And after then is where you are judged by God, on whether you go to heaven or hell or not. And as the Jews follow the Old Testament, theirs is a wrathful, fire and brimstoney God, so that fear is real and tangible.
    It may believed to be necessary to some but that does not make it above criticism or challenge. A child is being branded into a religion and no-one has asked the child for their consent. A child is no more Jewish/Muslim/Christian than they are Communist/Capitalist. Why are children of Jewish and Muslim parents not deserving of their human right to bodily autonomy unlike non-Jewish and non-Muslim children?

    I'm not for one moment saying the parents of these children don't love their child, I fully respect they are doing what they believe to be in the very best interest of the child. The fact is that they are surgically altering their child without its consent. (There was a case in NY some years ago of a baby contracting herpies from the Mohel as it was done in the traditional method where the Mohel sucks the baby's penis to remove the blood. Tragically the baby died.) In this respect religious circ'ing is no different to FGM. Whilst there are many motives for FGM, it is often done out of love for a child and to ensure religious practices are being followed. If you sanction male RIC performed for religious purposes then you would have to sanction FGM. For argument sake I am talking about the least intrusive forms of FGM such as a ceremonious pin prick to the clitoris to draw blood to the partial removal of the clitoral hood.

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  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberleygal1 View Post
    ...
    Yes it's sad but these cases are very rare, there is a small risk of something going wrong as there are risks with everything we do.
    ...
    So you'd be ok with your son having severe complications or even dying from the procedure?

    Previous posts of yours have stated that you have a career that is around risk management. You'll be aware then that there are 2 key variables in assessing risk, probability and impact. Whilst the probability of complications and/or death may be small, the impact cannot be understated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberleygal1 View Post
    Circumcision is a belief for some and not for others and people should not be critisised for their choices because it is not the choice of another persons.
    I will be vocal about a procedure that I think violates the human rights of babies. I and others like me will be their voice. Nothing is above criticism.

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    There are plenty of things in the bible that we just don't do in this day and age. Things change, times change.

    Re the c/section, I would class mental issues as a valid reason, Tokophobia is a very real condition.

    I have never met anyone IRL who just had a c/section because they felt like it.

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    And since when aren't we allowed to have opinions on things? Bubhub would be a really boring place if we followed that rule.

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    I know people that have had c-sections as its convenient. Makes my blood boil but its not my place to tell them they can't.

    I wouldn't call this story a circumcision death. The death wasn't directly caused by the procedure and its clear there are A LOT if unknowns that will have an impact on what actually did directly cause the death. I HATE how assumptions are drawn so quickly n readily without fact. Does nothing for an arguments credibility. The author is horrible.


 

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