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  1. #41
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    The fact is that most deaths and serious injuries associated with circumcision usually involve previously undiagnosed co-morbidities of which the parents and doctor were, by definition, unaware. This seems to be one of those cases.

    Common sense says that if you do not need to subject your child to a surgical procedure, then don't.
    Last edited by JohnC; 11-03-2013 at 09:11.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    The fact is that most deaths and serious injuries associated with circumcision usually involve previously undiagnosed co-morbidities of which the parents and doctor were, by definition, unaware. This seems to be one of those cases.

    Common sense says that if you do not need to subject your child to a surgical procedure, then don't.
    Because for some people, care for their children involves caring for more than just their physical needs. Its also their spiritual ones as well, which means following Gods word, which is on the 9th day people who follow the Old Testament, which I think are mainly Jews, are circumsized.

    Edit: Think I quoted wrong post. Stupid phone. Grr.

    Extra edit to add: While I'm not for or against circumcision, I think people who are against should be pretty angry at people like Joseph. If you're against something, everyone has their rights to argue against it and protest against it, but people who take something and twist it and sensationalize it ruin it for those people, destroy your credibility and make people not want to listen to what you have to say. So, being against it as much as you like, but letting people like Joseph attack an entire family for doing what they felt was right does you no favours, and agreeing with him automatically lumps you in the same basket, I'm afraid.

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    Last edited by Jennaisme; 11-03-2013 at 09:40.

  4. #43
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    At the end of the day, I think it is awful that this blogger is going after the family like that. So not on.

  5. #44
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    The blogger is wrong for going after the family like this.

    The parents are wrong for allowing a surgical procedure to be done on their son for no substantial medical reason.

    The doctors are wrong for doing the unnecessary procedure in the first place, and for failing to adequately check the health of the baby beforehand.

    Shame on everyone involved. Poor bubba.

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    beebs  (11-03-2013),Busy-Bee  (11-03-2013),CazHazKidz  (11-03-2013),Gandalf  (11-03-2013),JohnC  (11-03-2013),Lillynix  (11-03-2013)

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    At the end of the day, I think it is awful that this blogger is going after the family like that.
    As a general rule I don't agree with bloggers or the media invading people's privacy. Even if there is an issue of genuine public interest, there is no reason anonymity cannot be preserved. One might also add that posting the details of a personal tragedy on Facebook in the first place is seriously unwise: it's rather hard to complain after you've just published the details yourself to a billion users of social media.

  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    The blogger is wrong for going after the family like this.

    The parents are wrong for allowing a surgical procedure to be done on their son for no substantial medical reason.

    The doctors are wrong for doing the unnecessary procedure in the first place, and for failing to adequately check the health of the baby beforehand.

    Shame on everyone involved. Poor bubba.
    Best comment in this rather sad thread.

  9. #47
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    He did say that he thought his settings were private, I've had my settings turned on public on accident in the past.

    It just smacks of when the AVN went after the McCaffery family.

    I don't agree with circ unless medically needed, but I still don't think anyone should be targeting a grieving family. They didn't know their child was going to die and they wouldn't have done it if they had.

  10. #48
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    There is of course a broader problem here, which leads to a systematic under-reporting of circumcision fatalities. No one actually dies of the circumcision as such, but of subsequent blood loss or infection or anaesthetic complications. And it's not in the interest of any of the parties to say the child died "because of circumcision", since that implies the parents, who gave consent for the operation, are ultimately to blame, which is both hurtful and unfair in societies that legally tolerate non-therapeutic circumcision. And it also implies doctors were not acting in the "best interests" of the child (which is why many doctors refuse to perform the procedure and, increasingly, refuse to refer).

    The result is that the cause of death is usually attributed to ischaemia or septic shock or some such, with circumcision providing, at most, the uncriticised context, despite the fact the boy would still be alive had he not been circumcised for what were aesthetic or cultural or religious reasons.

    This is where the health argument comes in, with advocates trying to fill the other side of the ledger with supposed benefits that would offset the complication risk, which includes death. The problem is that in Australia there is exactly zero evidence that foreskin removal in infancy provides any health benefits at all. In fact, the least circumcising developed nations also have the best outcomes in terms of child mortality, life expectancy and sexually transmitted diseases. So while the risk of fatality is minuscule, there is no offset for that risk, no health gain or benefit, and we can't even get reliable estimates of what that risk is.
    Last edited by JohnC; 11-03-2013 at 13:04.

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  12. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    My point is is that this 'activist' has sensationalized a family's tragedy to try to prove his own cause. I am sure there are legitimate stories out there where there have been adverse outcomes from a circumcision but this is not proved to be one of them. This whole story is the author's own conclusion from bits and pieces he got via other people's facebooks. My feeling is is that this baby was already very sick and it is a coincidence that he had a circumcision before he died. None of us, including the author, have enough confirmed information (ie known facts) regarding this situation to draw conclusions as to why this baby died. A baby dying from hemophilia caused by a circumcision is a pretty unusual case that I am sure if it was known to be true news outlets around California or the states would have jumped on it.
    This is a legitimate death brought on by circing. I know some people dont see it that way but honestly think about it do you think that anything else a 9 day old baby would cause this other than cutting off one of the most sensitive part of his body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Because for some people, care for their children involves caring for more than just their physical needs. Its also their spiritual ones as well, which means following Gods word, which is on the 9th day people who follow the Old Testament, which I think are mainly Jews, are circumsized.

    Edit: Think I quoted wrong post. Stupid phone. Grr.

    Extra edit to add: While I'm not for or against circumcision, I think people who are against should be pretty angry at people like Joseph. If you're against something, everyone has their rights to argue against it and protest against it, but people who take something and twist it and sensationalize it ruin it for those people, destroy your credibility and make people not want to listen to what you have to say. So, being against it as much as you like, but letting people like Joseph attack an entire family for doing what they felt was right does you no favours, and agreeing with him automatically lumps you in the same basket, I'm afraid.

    Sent from my HUAWEI-U8850 using BubHub
    Religion should not protect people from facing the law when their baby dies from something they have done to them, same with the baby that got an STD from his circ these parents and doctors should be on trial and given a punishment, this boy paid with his life. Why? Its unnecessary

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    The blogger is wrong for going after the family like this.

    The parents are wrong for allowing a surgical procedure to be done on their son for no substantial medical reason.

    The doctors are wrong for doing the unnecessary procedure in the first place, and for failing to adequately check the health of the baby beforehand.

    Shame on everyone involved. Poor bubba.
    Yes they should all face a punishment IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
    There is of course a broader problem here, which leads to a systematic under-reporting of circumcision fatalities. No one actually dies of the circumcision as such, but of subsequent blood loss or infection or anaesthetic complications. And it's not in the interest of any of the parties to say the child died "because of circumcision", since that implies the parents, who gave consent for the operation, are ultimately to blame, which is both hurtful and unfair in societies that legally tolerate non-therapeutic circumcision. And it also implies doctors were not acting in the "best interests" of the child (which is why many doctors refuse to perform the procedure and, increasingly, refuse to refer).

    The result is that the cause of death is usually attributed to ischaemia or septic shock or some such, with circumcision providing, at most, the uncriticised context, despite the fact the boy would still be alive had he not been circumcised for what were aesthetic or cultural or religious reasons.

    This is where the health argument comes in, with advocates trying to fill the other side of the ledger with supposed benefits that would offset the complication risk, which includes death. The problem is that in Australia there is exactly zero evidence that foreskin removal in infancy provides any health benefits at all. In fact, the least circumcising developed nations also have the best outcomes in terms of child mortality, life expectancy and sexually transmitted diseases. So while the risk of fatality is minuscule, there is no offset for that risk, no health gain or benefit, and we can't even get reliable estimates of what that risk is.
    The stats will never be accurate because Drs dont want to admit they are wrong, the parents dont want to admit what they are doing is not the best thing for their child.

  13. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovemyfam View Post
    ...they should all face a punishment IMO
    You can't "punish" people for engaging in a lawful activity unless they are proved to have acted negligently.

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