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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    But that is like saying if someone died of sepsis which resulted from an operation, that they didn't die from the operation. They would never have gotten sepsis if they didn't have the operation in which they picked up an infection.

    I feel so sad for this family. I am sure they are kicking themselves, it is different in America as well, most males are circd over there, it is just considered normal.
    Oh I agree, but considering he actually had a condition that was unknown to his parents and doctor, I don't know if it's right to say that circumcision was to blame. It's sad that the parents had to find out when it was too late and due to an operation that is considered unnecessary by many, but they chose to have the procedure done thinking he was perfectly healthy and if they had known he had hemophilia, I'm assuming they wouldn't have had it done. This poor little baby died because of hemophilia that was brought to light during a circumcision.

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  3. #32
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    Of course, I also think that having it that early didn't help. The hemophilia would have shown up fairly quickly from what I understand, lots of bruising etc. If they had waiting a few more weeks or a few months, then maybe this could have been avoided.

    Other parents may hear of this story and decide to leave the circ for a couple of months.

    Quote Originally Posted by redlipsandpearls View Post
    Oh I agree, but considering he actually had a condition that was unknown to his parents and doctor, I don't know if it's right to say that circumcision was to blame. It's sad that the parents had to find out when it was too late and due to an operation that is considered unnecessary by many, but they chose to have the procedure done thinking he was perfectly healthy and if they had known he had hemophilia, I'm assuming they wouldn't have had it done. This poor little baby died because of hemophilia that was brought to light during a circumcision.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted View Post
    The poor little man. I just read some of the article which states the poor little thing was unwell (listless) and taken to hospital two days before the procedure. I wonder if you knew your baby was unwell why you would have him circ'd two days later.. actually, I wonder why you would put even a perfectly healthy baby through something like that for non-medical reasons.
    I noticed that the article mentioned that the baby was circumcised at nine days of age, and I recall the Bible calling on babies to be circumcised at nine days of age, so wonder if perhaps the family had a strong religious reason for the circumcision which caused them to overlook their baby's early warning signs in order to keep with the schedule ordained in the bible.

    -------------

    As for the notion in the OP, I do feel that this death can be attributed to the circumcision. It was one of the major factors that contributed to the baby's death.

    Then again, I was always told that my grandfather had been killed by a "barium dinner". He died a year before I was born. The whole story is that he had cancer of the esophagus and his esophagus was removed and his stomach stretched up to replace the missing tissue. Sometime later, whilst still in hospital, he was given a barium dinner to check on the progress of the healing, and this ripped the stitches resulting in his death. More recently, my father has been saying that his father died of throat cancer or stomach cancer - which I realise is also true, but at odds with what I've been told all my life.

    Similarly, my other grandfather died when I was 9yo. I was told that he died because he was too fat to recover after the operations necessary after a car accident. (He died in hospital a few weeks after the car accident.) Therefore, I grew up believing that obesity killed this grandfather. However it is also true to say that the car accident killed him. So really it is a matter of opinions.

    In any death there are often several contributing factors, and I believe that it is reasonable to point out any one of the major factors and attribute it as the cause of the death, but that doesn't discount the others as contributing factors also.

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  6. #34
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    If he hadn't had the procedure he wouldn't have died when he did. And I know that it could be argued that he might have died from his condition some time in the future anyway, making the when and how irrelevant, but anyone who has lost a loved one knows just how relevant the 'when' is.

    How often have we wished for just one more year, week, day, hour with someone? Most of us would do about anything for more time. If he hadn't had the procedure he would have had more time, how much more cant be known but I imagine every darn second would have meant the world to his parents.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Of course, I also think that having it that early didn't help. The hemophilia would have shown up fairly quickly from what I understand, lots of bruising etc. If they had waiting a few more weeks or a few months, then maybe this could have been avoided.

    Other parents may hear of this story and decide to leave the circ for a couple of months.
    I'm not familiar with hemophilia, so I'm not aware as to how it's diagnosed/discovered, but I don't think these parents should be getting grilled for choosing to circ their son. At that time they, and the doctor, thought he was healthy. I don't really have an opinion on circ, other than I won't be bothering for any future sons because *I* think it's unnecessary, but these parents obviously did.

  8. #36
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    my opinion is it didnt have to happen if they would have kept him intact he would be alive right now, sure blame it on whatever you want since we dont want people to know that babies can die from circing and stop doing it. Too bad the parents or doctors cant be charged with involuntary manslaughter the poor baby had his whole life ahead of him and it was cut short for something that has no good reason to be done ever IMO but certainly not at that age

  9. #37
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    Yes, I agree with you. It's a terrible tragedy

    Quote Originally Posted by redlipsandpearls View Post
    I'm not familiar with hemophilia, so I'm not aware as to how it's diagnosed/discovered, but I don't think these parents should be getting grilled for choosing to circ their son. At that time they, and the doctor, thought he was healthy. I don't really have an opinion on circ, other than I won't be bothering for any future sons because *I* think it's unnecessary, but these parents obviously did.

  10. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    I do not find this article a reliable source of information about what happened to this baby or really even about circumcision, if he's willing to post something like this.
    I agree.

    You can google his name (Joseph) and 'circumcision' and it comes up with some pretty interesting results. He is quite an outspoken activist with some unusual views of the world.

    This particular line pretty much sums him up.

    "Better children starve to death then waste millions of dollars in getting them mutilated."

    If you google that line, you will see it in context. He wanted to cut the funding to the UN!

    I personally, would not believe a word that this guy says.

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  12. #39
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    Joe is indeed an intactivist.

    Doesn't detract from the main point:

    The only way of guaranteeing there are no adverse consequences from unnecessary surgery is not to undergo unnecessary surgery.

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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    My point is is that this 'activist' has sensationalized a family's tragedy to try to prove his own cause. I am sure there are legitimate stories out there where there have been adverse outcomes from a circumcision but this is not proved to be one of them. This whole story is the author's own conclusion from bits and pieces he got via other people's facebooks. My feeling is is that this baby was already very sick and it is a coincidence that he had a circumcision before he died. None of us, including the author, have enough confirmed information (ie known facts) regarding this situation to draw conclusions as to why this baby died. A baby dying from hemophilia caused by a circumcision is a pretty unusual case that I am sure if it was known to be true news outlets around California or the states would have jumped on it.
    If the child was already very sick, then why circumcise?


 

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