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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marepoppin View Post
    The ATAR for speech path 3yrs ago was 92. I am being realistic when I say that the academic and clinical demands for speech pathology exceeds that of primary teaching. That shouldn't offend anyone, as it is fact, not an opinion.
    Golly, that would have been a tough cohort of students to be graded against (but an awesome group to teach)!

    You're right that it shouldn't be offensive. Physio entry is consistently higher than speech, 90 would be considered an absolute minimum, and accordingly their course is even more intense than ours. I'm not offended when a physio tells me that

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    I thought I might be opening a can of worms with that comment, but wanted to make sure the OP was factoring it into their decision.
    Sorry to derail your thread OP!

    There are multiple influences on the entry scores for a course, one of which is the academic demands of the course/profession. For example, if being a doctor suddenly became really unpopular and no one wanted to do it, does that mean they would lower the ATAR entry score to beef up their enrolments? Of course not, the academic demands of the course (i.e. the quantity and application of learning) would still be extremely high, so someone with a low atar probably wouldn't be able to actually pass.

    Enrolment numbers for courses is now uncapped (I.e. the uni can put as many students as they want in a course) but it is unethical to allow students into a course unless there is a realistic indication that they can pass. Failing students is bad for both the uni and the student so there is no point letting someone enrol if they haven't demonstrated an appropriate capacity for academic performance (through high school leaving score, stat test, previous study etc).

    For most unis the ATAR for Speech Path is about 80ish. I believe teaching entry can be about 55, (could be 60?). Obviously there could be some education students with much higher scores who would easily cope with the demands of any course, but someone with an ATAR of 55 isn't going to be able to produce the standard of work we expect from a course where our lowest performing student still entered with an 80.

    ATAR = Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (like TEE, HSC etc)
    Thanks for answering - not offended by what you're saying at all

    Naturally there are courses which are going to have higher demands academically, it's the nature of professions - I'm more interested in finding out specifically what it is that makes it so with speech? What are the academic and clinical expectations to become a speechy?

    I'm also a lecturer in education so the recent media on the academic rigour (or lack of...) of teaching of pre-service teachers in universities is a genuine interest of mine...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marepoppin View Post
    The ATAR for speech path 3yrs ago was 92. I am being realistic when I say that the academic and clinical demands for speech pathology exceeds that of primary teaching. That shouldn't offend anyone, as it is fact, not an opinion.
    Not disputing it's not a fact, I'm wondering what it is specifically about the academic and clinical demands that makes it a fact?

  4. #24
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    1st year courses: linguistics x2, psychology x2, anatomy, and 3x speech specific classes
    2nd year courses: physiology x2, neuroanatomy, 5x speech specific classes inc neurogenic language disorders, motor speech disorders, early language disorders, voice disorders, plus 13 half-day clinic placements
    3rd year courses: statistics, 5x speech specific classes inc fluency, school age children, neurophysiological language disorders, research in health sciences, language in special needs kids, swallowing disorders (dysphagia), and 13 half day clinic placements and 1x 6 week block placement
    4th year courses: 7x ready for graduation and the real world courses, 1x 6 week block placement and 13 half day clinic placements

  5. #25
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    Obviously different components of any course will play to different students' strengths, but in first year they have a massive amount of anatomy, physiology and neurology to learn. It's the quantity there that is a killer for some. Later their application of theories and clinical reasoning is a high standard to reach.
    I think possibly also the units might also be bigger and have more outcomes to measure so there is more to learn overall rather than any one part of it being specifically hard?

    For example, on one of their days my current first years have me for a 3 hour lecture in a morning, followed immediately by a 3 hour psych lecture, then a 2 hour human biol lab. 8 hours is a massive contact day, considering for every hour of uni class they should be doing 1-2 hours of pre or post reading.

    Speech students also have to proficient simultaneously across a range of fields. For example later in their course they might be on different pracs at the same time (2 days a week at each) which could be totally different fields. So they have to be totally up to speed on their neurology and acute care management in a stroke unit, at the same time as being totally committed to a school based literacy program.

    These are just thoughts though, I don't know the course structure of education so I don't know if these comparisons are really where the differences lie or if the general standards are just different.

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    I might be opening a can of worms here, but I just finished a teaching degree and I'm disappointed with the academic levels of people I studied with. I'm not saying that everyone was lacking, but general levels of writing, grammar, spelling were average. Also when it came to things like analyzing the basic idea behind readings and articles, thinking didn't show much depth. Lecturers themselves used to comment on shoddy grammar and things.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by newie22 View Post
    I might be opening a can of worms here, but I just finished a teaching degree and I'm disappointed with the academic levels of people I studied with. I'm not saying that everyone was lacking, but general levels of writing, grammar, spelling were average. Also when it came to things like analyzing the basic idea behind readings and articles, thinking didn't show much depth. Lecturers themselves used to comment on shoddy grammar and things.
    This is actually where my interest lies, the level of academic rigour. University of Melbourne has the Master of Teaching which I think is leading the way with new teaching graduates. Because, I agree with you entirely, it's an issue.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfishie View Post
    Obviously different components of any course will play to different students' strengths, but in first year they have a massive amount of anatomy, physiology and neurology to learn. It's the quantity there that is a killer for some. Later their application of theories and clinical reasoning is a high standard to reach.
    I think possibly also the units might also be bigger and have more outcomes to measure so there is more to learn overall rather than any one part of it being specifically hard?

    For example, on one of their days my current first years have me for a 3 hour lecture in a morning, followed immediately by a 3 hour psych lecture, then a 2 hour human biol lab. 8 hours is a massive contact day, considering for every hour of uni class they should be doing 1-2 hours of pre or post reading.

    Speech students also have to proficient simultaneously across a range of fields. For example later in their course they might be on different pracs at the same time (2 days a week at each) which could be totally different fields. So they have to be totally up to speed on their neurology and acute care management in a stroke unit, at the same time as being totally committed to a school based literacy program.

    These are just thoughts though, I don't know the course structure of education so I don't know if these comparisons are really where the differences lie or if the general standards are just different.
    Thanks, so it's a rigourous mix of content knowledge, application, analytical understandings and clearly a very large course load in terms of contact hours and readings. I get what you're saying to with being across different fields too, I really do think that education needs to review the current delivery, expectations and general academic rigour involved. Teaching is a craft and not one which can be cultivated with a 1 year grad dip. Raising standards pre service teaching courses I'm sure will result in better quality teachers in schools.

    3 hour lecture

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    I'm sorry to crash your thread, but I'm very interested in your comments babyla!. I really want to teach and am hoping to start my graduate diploma next year. The thing that I've been a bit apprehensive about is that it is only a one year course and I was wondering how on earth you could possibly cover everything adequately in such a short time. I'm really quite pleased to hear that it's going to become two years - do you know if that is definite, and is it Australia wide?.

    Thanks!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wktz View Post
    I'm sorry to crash your thread, but I'm very interested in your comments babyla!. I really want to teach and am hoping to start my graduate diploma next year. The thing that I've been a bit apprehensive about is that it is only a one year course and I was wondering how on earth you could possibly cover everything adequately in such a short time. I'm really quite pleased to hear that it's going to become two years - do you know if that is definite, and is it Australia wide?.

    Thanks!
    Hi wktz I've PM'd you


 

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