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  1. #321
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    The moment a foetus gets more rights than its mother is the moment pro life politicians start trying to bring in anti abortion laws. Is that really difficult to understand?


    QUOTE=VicPark;7073186]This is not aimed at you directly but I find the 'bodily autonomy over everything else' is a ridiculous pie in the sky notion.

    We don't have full autonomy in other aspects of our lives. There are things, that society as a whole dictates is unacceptable and this is reflected in the law. Murder, assault, burglary, rape, fraud.... The list goes on. We can't do whatever we want, we don't make our own rules.

    We don't have full bodily autonomy either. We can't do whatever we what we want with our bodies as there are some things society has dictated are unacceptable and this is reflected in the law. We can't put certain drugs into our body. Women can't walk around in the mall top less. We cant kill ourselves. Men can't slap the salami in public.

    We can't do whatever we want with our own bodies, this is nothing new. So why are people getting so worked up about restricting a pregnant woman's ability to break the law by taking drugs... While she happens to be pregnant? What makes this issue so different? I know people believe this will lead to an erosion of womens rights but I think thats cr@p. Such a law will never cover pregnant women eating cheese or lettuce. It will only extend so far as society wants it to. We live in a democracy with freedom of speech and regular elections. And Approximately 50%of the voting public have vaginas.

    If a woman thinks that her life is diminished because she no longer has the right to do stuff universally accepted as wrong, harming her baby in the process.... then I suggest her life wasnt worth much to start with.

    A more likely scenario .. I think the feminists amongst us are over thinking the issue in some parts (... Being fat and pregnant will get you arrested) and underthinking it in others (bubs and mums cant both have rights....women must be able to do whatever they want with their body).[/QUOTE]

  2. #322
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    Very good points. I would say that I don't have a problem with forced rehab per se, but only if it is for everyone. It is only that the law they are proposing is forced rehab for pregnant women only that makes me concerned, because as soon as that is the case, it means pregnant women are being treated different than the rest of the population just because they are pregnant. What about all the drug addicted fathers with dodgy sperm etc?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Yes this is what I am saying. If a woman has a mental illness and a D or A problem and is also pregnant then these are all factors which should be considered in relation to her rehabilitation. Currently as it stands this is not the case.

    why I was confused is I asked a few pages back:

    "What if she has a mental health issue as well as a D or A addiction? What if it was your sister, she was bipolar, off her meds, killing herself with alcohol and pregnant? Isn't her right to have the best chance to have a sane, happy life?" (bolding added)

    Onionskin responded: "Her rights as the one who carries the baby, must always come first. I don't always like what that involves, but it must always be the mother that comes first.

    Bodily autonomy is paramount. Always."

    You agreed.

    So I then asked "if she would otherwise be detained but is pregnant does that mean by this logic she shouldn't be detained". I didn't get a reply.

    This is why I am confused as the responses seem to put bodily autonomy above everything else. I am simply saying in the case of mental health it is part of the issue but not the only one.

    I would live for the day a person with a mental health issue and a D or A addiction could be removed into rehab (as an alternative to death) so I agree it would apply to all people in that situation (pregnant or otherwise).

  3. #323
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    The moment a foetus gets more rights than its mother is the moment pro life politicians start trying to bring in anti abortion laws. Is that really difficult to understand?
    ]
    Oh I understand, I just don't agree. The line will be drawn where the overwhelming majority of the voting public wants it to be. And I really don't think the line will come close to outlawing abortion.
    - As for abortion (I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did...), banning it in all but a few special cases, even though its never going to happen, wouldn't worry me. My identity as a female is not threatened because of that. But that's a whole other thread.

  4. #324
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Have the women so against forced rehab for pregnant women ever seen a child or adult that has foetal alcohol syndrome just one of the many things they can be born with? So a fears has no rights at all fair enough but them being born with FAS not only effects them in the womb but for there entire life if the mum gets clean and off the booze then the mother can get the baby back if not the baby goes into state care, and is each and every day that baby and then that child and adult as it grows up suffers with the decision that mother chose, to excessive her right to drink and get high while pregnant.

    I have never met a recording addict that regrets there decision to get clean,onlyq ones tht wish they did it sooner, I know that forced rehab has not got the best success rate but with a baby on the way and a supportive environment and therapy and health care it at least gives them and their baby a chance

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Very good points. I would say that I don't have a problem with forced rehab per se, but only if it is for everyone. It is only that the law they are proposing is forced rehab for pregnant women only that makes me concerned, because as soon as that is the case, it means pregnant women are being treated different than the rest of the population just because they are pregnant. What about all the drug addicted fathers with dodgy sperm etc?
    My earlier posts (which don't seem to have been read) were about rehab for parents, not just a pregnant woman, with mental health issues and a D or A problem.

    What I'm yet to see on here is someone come up with a better option.

    And I have never agreed with the article in the OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    The moment a foetus gets more rights than its mother is the moment pro life politicians start trying to bring in anti abortion laws. Is that really difficult to understand?
    Not at all - but the way bodily autonomy gets trotted out so many times gets a little misleading when we don't really have it in all cases anyway. And not in Qld.

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  8. #327
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    I guess the alternative would be perhaps special rehab clinics for people who are about to be parents, more education, a pp mentioned a walk through to see babies born with FAS and complications from drugs. More money needs to be put aside for this kind of thing, as with mental health. I would also like to see rehab clinics that are free without the years of waiting list. I absolutely think the government does not put enough money towards things like rehab or mental health.

    I know you didn't agree with the article. I think we can all agree something needs to be done.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    My earlier posts (which don't seem to have been read) were about rehab for parents, not just a pregnant woman, with mental health issues and a D or A problem.

    What I'm yet to see on here is someone come up with a better option.

    And I have never agreed with the article in the OP.

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  10. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ffrenchknickers View Post
    Nobody on this thread has ever said that the idea of a baby being born addicted is anything less than horrifying. I can't fathom taking drugs while pregnant personally. I gave up a truckload of different drugs to have my first baby, as well as smoking and even coffee because I just could not do it to him.... So it would be easy for me to sit back and say that everyone should be able to do that because I could, but I don't for a minute think that just because I could that it's the same for everyone.

    There's so much area in between believing its ok for parents to carry on using/drinking etc or abusing poor innocent children and the whole 'sorry, you stuffed up, no second chances'

    IMO, alot more money needs to go into bridging that gap to help people become the parents their children deserve them to be. More services need to be available and people need to be aware or them. Human beings need support not judgement.

    To say 'you stuffed up, that's it' is really off putting to me. We have all made mistakes, some seem bigger than others and are less socially acceptable/more damaging, yes, but all human beings deserve support. Of course children need to be removed from dangerous situations but the whole one strike and you're out it really upsetting to me.

    All it does is further alienate those in society that are the most in need (in this situation, women.)

    Like someone else said, what about people who do other damaging things while pregnant that aren't illegal? What about someone who has something like an eating disorder and continues to act out during pregnancy knowing it could harm their baby?
    Ok using your example if a woman is harming her baby by a eating disorder and it will affect the baby like drugs and alcohol and she is told how to stop it and offered help and doesnt take it then sure the baby should be removed why is it ok for the mother to damage another human just because she is a female? Anyone that knowingly harm a unborn baby even though doctors tell you how to stop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Didn't you say that her parents and family do drugs too? If that is the case she didn't stand a chance really did she, she is only really a child herself. Where was her help when she was brought up in a house like that? Where was her chance? i find that story very sad, I feel really sorry for her.
    She had many chances even the choice to go to a group home for pregnant teens finish her education and have financial help. She didnt care


    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    The moment a foetus gets more rights than its mother is the moment pro life politicians start trying to bring in anti abortion laws. Is that really difficult to understand?

    Not hard to understand what I dont understand is that people are not willing to punish people who have a baby they dont want and refuse to make sure that the baby doesnt get born shaking and having seizures and life long problems because they cant take steps to not have this happen even if it means abortion that is a better option than being fed drugs for 9 months

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  12. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Not at all - but the way bodily autonomy gets trotted out so many times gets a little misleading when we don't really have it in all cases anyway. And not in Qld.
    Honestly - I had no idea that those laws existed in QLD and WA until this thread.

  13. #330
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    Saying they should never ever, ever see their children again ever. I think your view is simplistic to be honest. I agree with FFrench, people make mistakes, and sometimes they get over their drugs, and become functioning members of society. What about people like that? Are they supposed to suffer for something they did when they were young for the rest of their lives even if they have changed their life around completely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovemyfam View Post
    Ok using your example if a woman is harming her baby by a eating disorder and it will affect the baby like drugs and alcohol and she is told how to stop it and offered help and doesnt take it then sure the baby should be removed why is it ok for the mother to damage another human just because she is a female? Anyone that knowingly harm a unborn baby even though doctors tell you how to stop it.



    She had many chances even the choice to go to a group home for pregnant teens finish her education and have financial help. She didnt care




    Not hard to understand what I dont understand is that people are not willing to punish people who have a baby they dont want and refuse to make sure that the baby doesnt get born shaking and having seizures and life long problems because they cant take steps to not have this happen even if it means abortion that is a better option than being fed drugs for 9 months


 

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