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  1. #221
    headoverfeet's Avatar
    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    I'm reading the nofasard website (which claims to be national website for FAS) and they are saying that no amount of alcohol is safe while pregnant and that they don't know how much alcohol causes FAS. The Aus national health and medical research council say not to drink any while pregnant and breastfeeding as well.

    If we don't know how much is safe than what's to stop someone exploiting this 'loop hole'?

    The whole 'where and who polices/draws the line' thing

    I can't seem to find any statistics on FAS but what's to stop them creating laws about other things pregnant women do that are higher risk than this?

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  3. #222
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Just something else that came to mind, maybe the law-makers/enforcers wouldn't be the only ones potentially abusing the law. If a drug addicted woman falls pregnant and the consequence is rehab, there's potential for women without any other support available to them to intentionally fall pregnant in order to gain access to forced, government funded rehab.

    It's one of those situations where there's no perfect answer. Sadly it seems innocent babies may suffer either way.

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    In order to give consent to have sex, you have to be of sound mind. Being heavily substance effected negates being able to give informed consent. I'm not saying every man that has had sex with a woman who is drunk should be charged with rape. What I am saying is, I agree with Blueths. Maybe some of the blame for pgs of women with addictions should also fall on the men that get them pg?

    Of course some pgs can happen with one nights stands with a man that has no idea she is a heroin addict. But having had contact with addicted women, most of the time the father is either a long term partner or a man that knows full well of her issues. Often they have substance abuse issues themselves. So this is both their fault.I also wanted to add, that most of us I believe fully support there being lots of support services offered. The sticking point isn't that we are saying turn a blind eye, it's the incarceration that bothers us. Being forced and not being allowed to leave is, by definition incarceration. It doesn't have to mean jail.
    Last edited by delirium; 09-02-2013 at 11:59. Reason: typo

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  6. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by headoverfeet View Post
    I'm reading the nofasard website (which claims to be national website for FAS) and they are saying that no amount of alcohol is safe while pregnant and that they don't know how much alcohol causes FAS. The Aus national health and medical research council say not to drink any while pregnant and breastfeeding as well.

    If we don't know how much is safe than what's to stop someone exploiting this 'loop hole'?

    The whole 'where and who polices/draws the line' thing

    I can't seem to find any statistics on FAS but what's to stop them creating laws about other things pregnant women do that are higher risk than this?
    Yep I argued this earlier. Studies show there is no safe limit. meaning a woman having a glass or two with dinner, by definition, is currently placing her child at harm given there is no safe limit found. It's these grey areas that can be abused.
    Last edited by delirium; 09-02-2013 at 11:59.

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  8. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Someones Mummy View Post
    No you are now talking about forced sterilisation and forced abortion.
    No I'm not talking about either of those...

    Anyway, I won't go on and on but I was just trying to example the myriad of associated issues that would come up if we were to start mandating over people's bodies and choices.

    I can see where you're coming from as a heartfelt place, and I hope you can see that I also come from a heartfelt place, as can everyone here discussing this. We're never going to have universal agreement on it though.

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  10. #226
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    I can't believe I am still arguing this crap tbh.

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  12. #227
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    My 15 year old niece had her baby removed for testing positive for weed while pregnant when she delivered the baby she spent an hour with it and they removed it to a foster home. I was so glad until they then adopted it out 8 months later to one of my sisters what a stupid move. IMO the baby should have been far removed from the family, no visitation and my niece should have been locked up. There is no excuse to do these things while you are pregnant we are educated in school about drugs, alcohol and smoking. I think babies should be removed at birth and mothers should go to jail or have a long term birth control. They dont have to pay for it with life long issues like the babies have too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    In order to give consent to have sex, you have to be of sound mind. Being heavily substance effected negates being able to give informed consent. I'm not saying every man that has had sex with a woman who is drunk should be charged with rape. What I am saying is, I agree with Blueths. Maybe some of the blame for pgs of women with addictions should also fall on the men that get them pg?

    Of course some pgs can happen with one nights stands with a man that has no idea she is a heroin addict. But having had contact with addicted women, most of the time the father is either a long term partner or a man that knows full well of her issues. Often they have substance abuse issues themselves. So this is both their fault.I also wanted to add, that most of us I believe fully support there being lots of support services offered. The sticking point isn't that we are saying turn a blind eye, it's the incarceration that bothers us. Being forced and not being allowed to leave is, by definition incarceration. It doesn't have to mean jail.
    You can use this above example to abuse current laws on rape. My husband can attempt to claim rape because he was drunk, consented, however due to his intoxication he wasn't of sound mind to give true consent. But will the law accept this and are the courts seeing cases like this? No I don't think so. We interpret the law within reason.
    Your last line is what I believe in forced rehab, yes its technically incaceration but its not jail where you aren't getting actual support.

    Quote Originally Posted by headoverfeet View Post
    I'm reading the nofasard website (which claims to be national website for FAS) and they are saying that no amount of alcohol is safe while pregnant and that they don't know how much alcohol causes FAS. The Aus national health and medical research council say not to drink any while pregnant and breastfeeding as well.

    If we don't know how much is safe than what's to stop someone exploiting this 'loop hole'?

    The whole 'where and who polices/draws the line' thing

    I can't seem to find any statistics on FAS but what's to stop them creating laws about other things pregnant women do that are higher risk than this?
    They say don't drink alcohol because they don't know exactly how much alcohol causes fas, so its their duty of care to say 0% alcohol is best since they don't know.
    They can't do human trials on pregnant women.

    Anyway. I don't want to discuss it anymore, it will never happen, not because I don't think it should, but no one will ever spend that sort of money on it.

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    Default Re: Lock up risk-taking mothers

    I've read through most of this - not all so forgive me if these points have already been made.

    I think pregnant or not every adult should have the same laws apply as one another, if it's legal to drink for someone before the conceived then it's legal afterwards.

    But it's already illegal to take illegal drugs (ermm obviously?) so I do think the law absolutely has a place and a right to take appropriate action.

    But for all the reasons others have given its a dangerous thing to put laws on unless they are going to use very very very specific wording and circumstances where it applies and I think that would be rather pointless if the laws stated for example that a mother who is aware that she is pregnant, who reaches a BAC of x on x number of occasions and etc etc etc

    Because the what ifs are what will open it wide open.

    And personally I'm way more afraid of then what that means in terms of if a health care provider deems a pregnant woman actions to be risky, it might actually put them in a position where that word "let" they throw around actually means something.

    But from my pov it's pretty obvious if the risky behaviour is already illegal it shouldn't become a matter of bodily autonimy *because* someone is pregnant.


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  16. #230
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    SpecialPatrolGroup is offline T-rex is cranky until she gets her coffee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue View Post
    Just something else that came to mind, maybe the law-makers/enforcers wouldn't be the only ones potentially abusing the law. If a drug addicted woman falls pregnant and the consequence is rehab, there's potential for women without any other support available to them to intentionally fall pregnant in order to gain access to forced, government funded rehab.

    It's one of those situations where there's no perfect answer. Sadly it seems innocent babies may suffer either way.
    At least they will be clean and sober to enjoy their plasma.


 

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