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  1. #181
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    Mod-pegasus is offline ADMINISTRATOR
    and all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks with the one word...UNLESS
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    There are lots of definitions of "addict".

    One is:
    Your behaviour is impacting on the health of and your relationships with others

    This is a persistent one that comes up regardless of what the addiction is. There are many more.

  2. #182
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    As much as I'm done with this topic I just think that as much as everyone (including myself) would like to see any pregnant drug-addicted woman recover from the addiction (and drg-addicted males temporarily sterilised so as not to impregnate anybody), institutionalising and forcing it will only open up the way for people to use it as a form of violence against women. There are and always have been people out there who'd like to control women (think back to medievil witch hunt trials). It's not hard to think of how such laws could be used as violence against women.

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  4. #183
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialPatrolGroup View Post
    Can I suggest that you have a look over Deliriums posts in this thread. She makes some excellent points about the fact that a law like this could open the door for women who may, be overweight, have bad diet, take a medication, or any number of other ways in which a law like this could be used to deny a womans right to her body.
    This is being a bit OTT. Laws aren't just one page documents that are written up in a day by everyday people. They are extremely long processes to write, develop, edit, check etc. they then need to be passed by parliament, wjere amendments will be made etc etc. I'm pretty sure there won't be anything in there about overweight mothers or lettuce or ham or any of the other issues everyone seems to think it will include.

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  6. #184
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    But that's just it.

    If you ever read laws they rarely point out specifics. They will say general stuff like, (from the qld child protection act): " in protecting a child, the State should only take action that is warranted in the circumstances;"

    It is filled with stuff like this. This stuff is deliberately vague as to not leave anything out... If it listed off all the drugs that would cause you to lose your kid, a new drug might be developed that is not listed and thus the same rules couldn't apply to a person on that drug, for example, so in that sense it makes sense to be vague and general rather than specific.

    The thing is though, being vague also means that if someone wanted, they could easily make that about anything they wanted... Since risk cannot be clearly defined.

    So laws passed CAN lead to people being persecuted for silly things... Because laws don't define specifics in many cases and leave plenty of room for interpretation.

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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    But that's just it.

    If you ever read laws they rarely point out specifics. They will say general stuff like, (from the qld child protection act): " in protecting a child, the State should only take action that is warranted in the circumstances;"

    It is filled with stuff like this. This stuff is deliberately vague as to not leave anything out... If it listed off all the drugs that would cause you to lose your kid, a new drug might be developed that is not listed and thus the same rules couldn't apply to a person on that drug, for example, so in that sense it makes sense to be vague and general rather than specific.

    The thing is though, being vague also means that if someone wanted, they could easily make that about anything they wanted... Since risk cannot be clearly defined.

    So laws passed CAN lead to people being persecuted for silly things... Because laws don't define specifics in many cases and leave plenty of room for interpretation.
    Brilliant post SM.

    Those without sin cast the first stone...

    I would like to know who is going to fix these women and the children, who will no doubt suffer abandonement issues amongst many other things.

    Just as a side note. I went to school with a girl who's mum was a heroin addict
    her dad also, she was born horribly addicted. And after detoxing was handed back to her mum. She was one of the kindest caring people I have ever met, she is today one of au's most succesful advertising guru's. Her mothers trouble was well publicesed at the time as her mother was murdered, in a very high profile case as a teenager... Her mum was a beautiful woman who was horribly addicted, but yet managed to always be a good mum - if you could forgive her addictions. I only write about her because had her daughter been taken away, it would have been a tragedy for both mother and daughter.

  9. #186
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    Wow this topic is on fire! I have witnessed a few mums-to-be drinking and occasionally taking drugs, while they were acquaintances of mine, i did not condone what they were doing and told them so, anyone who knows me knows i dont hold back and honestly gave these women a serve. Its not fair on the babies, the mothers could have taken steps to prevent the pregnancy or even end it early if it wasnt planned or wanted. Its extremely selfish to put your baby in a position where it could be harmed by your actions in utero.

    Saying this I dont believe these women who "take risks" should be safe housed or locked up, to prevent their behaviours, from what i seen, its a life long struggle and one of the mums in what i mentions above, was going thru a really rough time with her last baby; ie, other kids and partner when she resorted to drugs and alcohol, she was pretty responsible with her other pregnancies so IMO it was stress related, she knew what she was doing was wrong for her and the baby, but life got too much for her that very point in time

    If the police and government push ahead with this when will it end? Im sorry but " high risk" mothers are already monitored if they are on the radar, Young mothers are on their radar, and all it takes is one concerned friend/family member and the right people will take steps to educate and monitor women like this. And if there is other children involved then the right authorities should be looking at those children already and taking steps to insure the mother or family as a whole get the help they need to be better caregivers to their children, unborn or not.

  10. #187
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lozie View Post
    Wow this topic is on fire! I have witnessed a few mums-to-be drinking and occasionally taking drugs, while they were acquaintances of mine, i did not condone what they were doing and told them so, anyone who knows me knows i dont hold back and honestly gave these women a serve. Its not fair on the babies, the mothers could have taken steps to prevent the pregnancy or even end it early if it wasnt planned or wanted.
    A few words for you

    *Rape (most of which happens in a womans own home by her own spouse)
    *Failed contraception
    *Abortion isn't easy
    *Abortion costs $450 (in WA)
    *Abortion access by states here http://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/i...w-and-practice

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  12. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuddlesAwait View Post
    This is being a bit OTT. Laws aren't just one page documents that are written up in a day by everyday people. They are extremely long processes to write, develop, edit, check etc. they then need to be passed by parliament, wjere amendments will be made etc etc. I'm pretty sure there won't be anything in there about overweight mothers or lettuce or ham or any of the other issues everyone seems to think it will include.
    Honestly and I mean no disrespect but you're being a bit naive. As a lawyer who has practised for excess of 20 years we make our living driving trucks through legislation so we can make it fit our client's needs. If someone wanted to interpret an Act like what's been proposed to have a woman institutionalised over something unintended, there are plenty of very smart lawyers out there who would make a real go at it. While a court might ultimately decide that wasn't the intent of the legislation if it's broad enough in it's drafting the court just might find against the pregnant woman.

    Why do you think legislation gets redrafted so often? Because things are always arising which no one thought of at the time.

    And you are definitely giving our legislators far too much credit if you believe legislation isn't often passed without much thought.

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  14. #189
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    headoverfeet is offline The truth will set you free, but first it will **** you off. -Gloria Steinem
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    Even pregnant women are only human

    And I'm sure mum would be asking who ordained the righteous chorus out there that believes it has the right to adjudicate on others from such a lofty perch of perfection?
    You are no longer a woman primarily, but an emerging mother and, as such, should be measured by a new set of rules as outlined by self-appointed martyr mothers who believe they are focused solely on the greater gestational good.
    What she was doing was being a flawed human being. Which is what every woman remains, piously pregnant or not


    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/soc...#ixzz2KM2EvIvy

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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    By all this logic there would be no laws in this country.
    What it ultimately comes down to is a baby in the womb has no rights and that's it.

    We have drinking laws, you can drink and no one can stop you at home. But in public you can't be drunk, you can be refused service of alcohol and you can't drive, this doesn't lead to silly arrests or people having their rights stripped, we control it to protect society from their actions because they're intoxicated and aren't making sound decisions.
    Why can't we have specific laws like this when it comes to pregnancy? It can just be about alcohol and drugs, laws that are included in the ones we already have. Weekly visits to a counsellor mandatory, urine tests and repeated failure means going to a safe house. Not just get arrested out of the blue, but women who are already under these conditions with docs because they already have children.
    How do we define addict? Believe me they are already on docs and police radar with regular contact and checks. They're not invisible when they have children.

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