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  1. #111
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by Someones Mummy View Post
    I agree about the slippery slope comment VicPark.

    I wanted to add that this doesn't have to be an abortion debate. It can just be about women who are continuously and deliberately putting their baby at serious risk, who needs help, who probably want help and this can be what they need. A safe house doesn't have to be a 4x4 jail cell. It can be a place where she and her children can stay, get treatment, get educated and stay safe.
    This will never happen ofcourse because this country doesn't spend that sort of money on drug addicts.
    So sort of forcing someone to take the help they need? Interesting angle on the discussion, I agree.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I know I might get shot saying this on here but.....Some women are horrid and don't deserve rights. This idea that women's rights must be protected at all costs I don't get. Assuming the law is robust, unless you're a total selfish &@$!@ looser ... then your rights won't be impacted.
    Again I agree.

    You can also keep abortion laws and allow women safe and legal abortions and make it illegal to continuously harm your baby.
    This sounds horrible, but I'd rather you abort and end that childs misery then constantly injest heroin or alcohol making the baby suffer everyday in the womb
    And at say after 28 weeks if you are still pregnant and using you get forced into a facility.

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Even though it is absolutely awful, that some people do things like that when pregnant. I really don't think there is a middle ground, I think it can only be one or the other, either babies rights trump the mothers rights, or mothers rights trump the babies rights.
    Tbh it amazes me that drug addicts, alcoholics or even heavy smoker's bodies can support a pregnancy to term to begin with... But yes it's just a fact that before a baby is born it is still a part of its mother's body, and is thus an extension if her own bodily autonomy, and any direct damage a mother does to her own body may indirectly harm her baby.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    To suggest that a baby doesn't deserve rights until it's no longer inside a woman's body, doesn't mean that you agree with women doing anything stupid and almost certainly harmful to their unborn baby... it just means that there is no other way to deal with it, other than to understand that to give that unborn baby rights mean you're taking away the rights of a person who is only having those rights stripped of them BECAUSE of that baby.
    This exactly. No one is saying any of this discussion on late term abortion or drinking or taking drugs is palatable. I personally struggle back and forth with these discussions on baby vs mothers rights, particularly in the abortion debate. But it really boils down to what Sassy has said.

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Assuming the law is robust...
    That is a big assumption though. I'll go back to my example on HB with a breech baby. A highly questionable study, the term breech trial has effectively stopped 90% of natural breech births now. bc the study 'proved' it was dangerous. I should add there have been found to be big flaws in methodology. But the medical establishment deems the trial valid. So now a mum, who has a full term breech decides to birth at home bc she doesn't want a c/s. Now with new laws in place where govt/police/medical can intervene, she is taken against her will, placed in a facility then made to birth by c/s. Infact by that vein all HB could result in the same treatment bc most drs will say there is 'proof' HB is dangerous. When in fact that simply isn't true in a vast majority of cases.

    See the grey area? once we open the flood gates, more and more examples are going to be added where women have their rights taken bc an activity is deemed dangerous. The overweight pg woman is told she will be incarcerated of sorts until she loses weight. Bc obesity is a 'choice' to overeat and causes lots of issues with pg and birth. Therefore an overweight pg woman is actively choosing to harm her child.

    Hell just driving a car pg is dangerous. And before you say stop being silly, think about it. In a serious accident the chances of the baby dying are pretty high. it was a choice for her to drive. Therefore, being realistic, every single pg woman that sits in a moving car is exposing their child to potential death....

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  8. #116
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    That is a big assumption though. I'll go back to my example on HB with a breech baby. A highly questionable study, the term breech trial has effectively stopped 90% of natural breech births now. bc the study 'proved' it was dangerous. I should add there have been found to be big flaws in methodology. But the medical establishment deems the trial valid. So now a mum, who has a full term breech decides to birth at home bc she doesn't want a c/s. Now with new laws in place where govt/police/medical can intervene, she is taken against her will, placed in a facility then made to birth by c/s. Infact by that vein all HB could result in the same treatment bc most drs will say there is 'proof' HB is dangerous. When in fact that simply isn't true in a vast majority of cases.

    ..
    Women to chose birthing breech at home? Eeek. You didn't convince me to change my mind with that example

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women to chose birthing breech at home? Eeek. You didn't convince me to change my mind with that example
    Of course they do. Subsequent studies have shown if you have a middie that is trained in breech it's pretty safe

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  11. #118
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    Default Re: Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Women to chose birthing breech at home? Eeek. You didn't convince me to change my mind with that example
    And this is exactly how the slippery slope starts

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  13. #119
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    See the grey area? once we open the flood gates, more and more examples are going to be added where women have their rights taken bc an activity is deemed dangerous. The overweight pg woman is told she will be incarcerated of sorts until she loses weight. Bc obesity is a 'choice' to overeat and causes lots of issues with pg and birth. Therefore an overweight pg woman is actively choosing to harm her child.

    Hell just driving a car pg is dangerous. And before you say stop being silly, think about it. In a serious accident the chances of the baby dying are pretty high. it was a choice for her to drive. Therefore, being realistic, every single pg woman that sits in a moving car is exposing their child to potential death....
    I don't agree the floodgates will be opened. If the law is written robustly, there would only be very specific cases requiring intervention (druggies, self harm, etc). As for overweight women being written into the law... Fat chance of that happening (pun intended). As for the car example, sorry I think that example is a little dramatic. Even though I dont agree I do love that you are having a crack at a good debate on the issue

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  15. #120
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    We drive everyday with a risk of a person, child, baby or foetus dying everyday but we still drive. I would only assume that a newborn is at high risk of serious injury aswell? I think if you are negligent in a driving accident you are and should be charged. Whether its your baby or not, whether an unborn baby has a higher risk or not we accept it ( because we do already when we get in our cars)
    No one drives just because you can't get charged for causing death to an unborn baby and no one will stop if you do.
    You are still responsible and should be careful because pregnancy is part of society.


 

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