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  1. #101
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    To suggest that a baby doesn't deserve rights until it's no longer inside a woman's body, doesn't mean that you agree with women doing anything stupid and almost certainly harmful to their unborn baby... it just means that there is no other way to deal with it, other than to understand that to give that unborn baby rights mean you're taking away the rights of a person who is only having those rights stripped of them BECAUSE of that baby.

    As for being shipped off to some sort of facility, I think that a drug-addicted pregnant woman or a severely mentally ill pregnant woman should be treated the same way she would be if she wasn't pregnant. I believe that under the mental health act, people who are at risk to themselves can be held against their will, but whether or not a woman is pregnant should not come into it. If she is at risk of harming herself, she should be detained. If she happens to be pregnant, then fine, I suppose holding her will mean that her unborn child is less likely to suffer as a result of decisions made while in a state of terrible mental health.

    A woman going out for a bender is risky, but it is not something that you can be arrested for (unless you do something stupid while under the influence, of course), and it should remain that way for pregnant women also. Yes, it's a bad thing for her to do. Yes, it's not ideal for the foetus she is carrying. However, when we strip her of the rights all her fellow humans have, we are reducing her to nothing more than a vessel, an incubator, and no woman should ever be reduced to lesser because of that. No woman should ever feel if she falls pregnant, her body is no longer her own and that the state owns it more than she.

    That's not a good place for any woman to be, and we've fought to get out of that kind of place. I don't think it would be good for ANY woman to return to the days when a woman's body was never her own - it was her fathers, her husbands, and used pretty much exclusively for baby-making.

    I want much more for my daughter than to choose between being childless and full of rights, or a mother, and stripped of any rights the minute a pregnancy is confirmed.

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  3. #102
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    Where did anyone ever say that it's "perfectly acceptable to neglect your unborn child's needs and place then at risk of harm"? No one has ever said anything of the sort. What they have said is that all women need to be able to decide what happens to their body at all times, and that includes being pregnant. There will always be awful abuser type people, but that doesn't mean all women should suffer because of a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ElectricPink~ View Post
    Why is it that, once a baby is born, it has the right to a life free from harm, neglect and abuse.....but before then, has zero rights whatsoever? Ironic when pregnancy is the most CRUCIAL time for development, negative actions during pregnancy have the potential to impact on the quality of life that child has, and can cause lifelong health problems.

    As soon as a woman does something to impact on baby's well being once born, they are vilified - but it's perfectly acceptable to neglect your unborn child's needs and place them at risk of harm? Crazy....

  4. #103
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    To suggest that a baby doesn't deserve rights until it's no longer inside a woman's body, doesn't mean that you agree with women doing anything stupid and almost certainly harmful to their unborn baby... it just means that there is no other way to deal with it, other than to understand that to give that unborn baby rights mean you're taking away the rights of a person who is only having those rights stripped of them BECAUSE of that baby.

    As for being shipped off to some sort of facility, I think that a drug-addicted pregnant woman or a severely mentally ill pregnant woman should be treated the same way she would be if she wasn't pregnant. I believe that under the mental health act, people who are at risk to themselves can be held against their will, but whether or not a woman is pregnant should not come into it. If she is at risk of harming herself, she should be detained. If she happens to be pregnant, then fine, I suppose holding her will mean that her unborn child is less likely to suffer as a result of decisions made while in a state of terrible mental health.

    A woman going out for a bender is risky, but it is not something that you can be arrested for (unless you do something stupid while under the influence, of course), and it should remain that way for pregnant women also. Yes, it's a bad thing for her to do. Yes, it's not ideal for the foetus she is carrying. However, when we strip her of the rights all her fellow humans have, we are reducing her to nothing more than a vessel, an incubator, and no woman should ever be reduced to lesser because of that. No woman should ever feel if she falls pregnant, her body is no longer her own and that the state owns it more than she.

    That's not a good place for any woman to be, and we've fought to get out of that kind of place. I don't think it would be good for ANY woman to return to the days when a woman's body was never her own - it was her fathers, her husbands, and used pretty much exclusively for baby-making.

    I want much more for my daughter than to choose between being childless and full of rights, or a mother, and stripped of any rights the minute a pregnancy is confirmed.
    I do understand the point that you are making, and it could perhaps be a slippery slope in regards to women's rights during pregnancy.

    But, tell me this....why is it that a pregnant woman's "right" to partake in drug taking, excessive drinking or dangerously risky behaviours triumphs over an unborn child's basic human right to a healthy life, free from harm?

  5. #104
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    To suggest that a baby doesn't deserve rights until it's no longer inside a woman's body, doesn't mean that you agree with women doing anything stupid and almost certainly harmful to their unborn baby... it just means that there is no other way to deal with it
    Ah yeah there's another way to handle it.... If a parent is doing something dangerously grotesque that will harm her unborn baby then stuff her! Selfish idiots don't deserve rights! Lock them up/put them in rehab or do whatever is needed to protect bub.

    As for what meets the threshold for action, let the public have their say and let the lawmakers legislate to ensure authorities can act.

    My personal opinion:
    1. Actionable:
    a) illegal drug taking
    b) Self harm that would harm bub
    c) Attempts to abort bub outside legal/medical parameters
    d) mum in such a mental or physical state that she is unable to look after herself so bub is at risk

    2. Not yet actionable ( although I wouldn't disagree if they were)
    - pregnant smokers (bit hard to haul pregnant mothers away on this one considering the cancer sticks are still legal)
    - abortions unless the mothers/bub life is at risk (probably will never get society to agree on this one).

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  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    - abortions unless the mothers/bub life is at risk (probably will never get society to agree on this one).
    Yeah, I think you might be right. Thank goodness.

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  9. #106
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    I don't agree with the slippery slope scaremongering. It's not a slippery slope if lawmakers make robust water tight laws. If they 'go too far' and the public disagrees, the public can vote them out and vote in someone else who will make laws they agree with.

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  11. #107
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    Even though it is absolutely awful, that some people do things like that when pregnant. I really don't think there is a middle ground, I think it can only be one or the other, either babies rights trump the mothers rights, or mothers rights trump the babies rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ElectricPink~ View Post
    I do understand the point that you are making, and it could perhaps be a slippery slope in regards to women's rights during pregnancy.

    But, tell me this....why is it that a pregnant woman's "right" to partake in drug taking, excessive drinking or dangerously risky behaviours triumphs over an unborn child's basic human right to a healthy life, free from harm?

  12. #108
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by ~ElectricPink~ View Post
    I do understand the point that you are making, and it could perhaps be a slippery slope in regards to women's rights during pregnancy.

    But, tell me this....why is it that a pregnant woman's "right" to partake in drug taking, excessive drinking or dangerously risky behaviours triumphs over an unborn child's basic human right to a healthy life, free from harm?
    Her right to partake in these activities triumphs the unborn child's rights because it is her body and the baby is part of her body until it is born and becomes a person in its own right. Her right to bodily autonomy will always triumph.

    It isn't fair but it's the way it has to be to protect women's rights.

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  14. #109
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    Default Lock up risk-taking mothers

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpybump View Post

    It isn't fair but it's the way it has to be to protect women's rights.
    I know I might get shot saying this on here but.....Some women are horrid and don't deserve rights. This idea that women's rights must be protected at all costs I don't get. Assuming the law is robust, unless you're a total selfish &@$!@ looser ... then your rights won't be impacted.

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  16. #110
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    I agree about the slippery slope comment VicPark.

    I wanted to add that this doesn't have to be an abortion debate. It can just be about women who are continuously and deliberately putting their baby at serious risk, who needs help, who probably want help and this can be what they need. A safe house doesn't have to be a 4x4 jail cell. It can be a place where she and her children can stay, get treatment, get educated and stay safe.
    This will never happen ofcourse because this country doesn't spend that sort of money on drug addicts.


 

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